Who Killed Jesus?: Setting the Record Straight

BreakPoint ^ | 12 Feb 04 | Charles Colson

[Texas2step]

*PING* to an excellent article by Chuck Colson about what Christians believe about the death of Jesus.

Good summary, and some good comments. Enjoy!

[Texas2step]

So why should they be so concerned that people who do accept Him would be upset at them for killing him.

Come on, Terry. Did you really read what you wrote. Who's upset at the Jews for killing Jesus? You? I'm not, and to be honest, I don't know any real Christians that are.

Did you even read the article?

I can understand why some Christians do not understand why the controversy even exists. But I also cannot understand Christians who want to place the blame on someone for something that was God's plan all along.

[teeman8r]

it is my belief that Jesus rose from the dead, and ipso facto, means there is no longer a crime to be debated... only a celebration...

this is supposed to be a happy occassion. let's ot bick and argue about who killed who...

t

[Ancesthntr]

What I don't understand is the Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah. So why should they be so concerned that people who do accept Him would be upset at them for killing him.

Let's see, on one side we have a people who constitute about 1/4 of 1% of the world's population. They are disbursed in a multitude of countries and have political control in only 1 small nation - the size of New Jersey - and even that is challenged by about 1/4 of humanity (most of whom would like to see all members of this tiny minority exterminated or forcibly converted).

On the other side you have about 1/4 of humanity who've been taught since they were very young that this tiny little minority of people that is alive today is responsible for the death/murder of their deity over 2,000 years ago. And this is a different 1/4 than the 1/4 mentioned above, so now it is really 1/2 who "have it in for" this tiny minority. This group holds power in a large number of the most advanced countries on Earth, including the most powerful and most of its close allies.

100:1 (or, perhaps, 200:1) odds, nearly 2,000 years of vilification, a bloody and senseless massacre of 1/3 of this small minority group within living memory, which followed massacres, expulsions, asset seizures and demonizations stretching back over more than 1,500 years, rising and ever more open anti-Semitism in many countries throughout the world (now that the world's collective guilt for the Holocaust seems to be disappearing...Gee, what is it with these Jews, what are they worried about?

Jews aren't worried about being blamed for anything in a purely verbal manner - because, first of all, there is some question as to the validity of the claim that their VERY distant ancestors did "X;" second, because even if the charge is true, Jews don't accept blame for what happened perhaps 80 generations before they were born; third because, after all, "sticks and stones can break my bones...." What they are worried about is the fact that history shows that the anger felt by many Christians is not limited to a civilized debate, but often degenerates into senseless violence and murder.

Your statement might have just a tiny bit more credibility if you could put yourself in the shoes of a Jew for just a few moments - to understand what it means to be part of a tiny minority that has been vilified, expelled, forcibly converted and murdered for much of recorded history, and with ominous signs that the respite of the past 2 generations is rapidly becoming part of the past.

[Ancesthntr]

The Jews are God's chosen people. Why would he leave them out of such a significant part of His plan? He didn't.

Thank you for pointing this out. Let others ponder this: G-d promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and a host of others that He would protect and preserve their descendants for all of time. What would it say about G-d if He went back on His word?

[kittymyrib]

What we Christians sometimes forget is that we see Jesus through the eyes of faith, faith that was given to us as a gift, not because we did anything to deserve it, lest we should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9). We cannot convert anyone. Only the Holy Spirit explaining God's love through the Scriptures can do that. We can, however, let His love shine through our lives so that others may be attracted to our Father in heaven (Matthew 5:16).

[Leatherneck_MT]

WE Killed Jesus

and if he were to come today instead of back then, our Religious Leaders would be the first to cry "Crucify Him".

[Leatherneck_MT]

"I didn't know He was dead
Well, He isn't right now..."

Good point :)

[Texas2step]

Thank you for pointing this out. Let others ponder this: G-d promised Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and a host of others that He would protect and preserve their descendants for all of time. What would it say about G-d if He went back on His word?

He has, and He will continue to protect and preserve the Jews for all time. There's no going back on His word. He never has and He never will.

[Ancesthntr]

There's no going back on His word. He never has and He never will.

It was clear from your first message that you understand this; my question was directed at others who just don't understand this simple and most basic of truths.

[Texas2step]

On the other side you have about 1/4 of humanity who've been taught since they were very young that this tiny little minority of people that is alive today is responsible for the death/murder of their deity over 2,000 years ago.

Sorry, but your numbers are completely wrong. I'm assuming that you are claiming that 1/4 of the world's population is Christian, or claims to be Christian. I don't have any numbers that will dispute that.

However, there is only a small fraction of the 1/4 that has been taught anything close to what you believe it taught.

Real Christians have not been taught that the Jews are responsbile for the death of Jesus. That's patently false. No, we are taught that the Jews are God's chosen people who, for reasons unknown to us, rejected Jesus as the Messiah when He was here 2000 years ago.

But, we are also taught that God has a redeeming plan for His people (the Jews) and that they remain God's chosen people who will be protected by God through the end of time.

Now, if I'm Christian, and I've been taught that the Jews are under God's protection, then what in the blue blazes would I be doing to try and eradicate His people.

No, it's closer to some small percentage of people, who claim to be Christians, have been taught through the years that the Jews are responsible for Jesus death. In reality, these are people who are already anti-Semetic, and just want something to blame on the Jews. People who believe this aren't really Christians, no more than the Nazi's were Christians.

Don't paint Christians with the broad brush of Nazism. It ain't right, and it ain't correct.

All of that being said, I cannot disagree with your last paragraph. The comment you were responding to was completely out of line with what Christians really believe as can be attested to what has been posted on this thread by the vast majority of Christians here.

Christians, you cannot claim, at any time, that "the Jews" killed Christ. They didn't. It was God's plan. Don't give blame to the Jews for something that God intended and that Jesus willingly gave His life for. It's a stupid why to make an arguement.

[Texas2step]

It was clear from your first message that you understand this; my question was directed at others who just don't understand this simple and most basic of truths.

No problem. I've had some rather intense discussions with one of your brethren and have to defend everything I write, even when we're on the same side of things. :-)

Peace and grace.

[Agnes Heep]

Correction: It is your BELIEF that certain Jews agitated for the execution of Jesus. It is not proveable fact.

Just as it is your BELIEF that Jesus even existed? Please; spare me. The same documents upon which you predicate your belief in the earthly existence of Jesus inform me that certain Jews agitated for his death. It's not scandalous that they should have done so; indeed; it was quite understandable. Jesus was obviously a very popular individual whose presence could incite other Jews to insurrection. The leading Jews feared Roman retaliation, and indeed they had good cause to fear it, as witnessed by the events of 66-70 A.D., fully outlined by the historian Josephus. It wouldn't necessarily have been out of malice or ill will that they acted against him; simply a fear that everything they had would be destroyed by Roman retaliation.

[ladyrustic]

"Real Christians have not been taught that the Jews are responsbile for the death of Jesus. That's patently false. No, we are taught that the Jews are God's chosen people who, for reasons unknown to us, rejected Jesus as the Messiah when He was here 2000 years ago.

But, we are also taught that God has a redeeming plan for His people (the Jews) and that they remain God's chosen people who will be protected by God through the end of time."

Well said, and bears repeating.

[Mr. Silverback]

and if he were to come today instead of back then, our Religious Leaders would be the first to cry "Crucify Him".

You know, a lot of people say this, but I think it's only partially true, and I think it leaves the work of the Holy Spirit out. I think only those who are truly apostate--not merely wrong, or misguided, but people who know what God's word says and have chosen to distort it--would be His enemies. Teachers like Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimethea respected and welcomed Him, while others had Him killed.

Take Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson, for example. Maybe you didn't mean them, but those two are just the sort of folks who most people mean when they say, "If Jesus came by, the religous leaders would crucify Him again." Now I have some differences of opinion with those two gentlemen, but I've seen the way that they treat "sinners" and those who disagree with them, and it's nothing like the attitude that the Pharisees had toward sinners and those who disagreed with them. Now, the folks on the Religious Left...the minute He said, "Um, where did you guys get the impression I wanted gay bishops?" Gene Robinson and all his supporters would want Him on a cross post haste. They would see him as a major gay-basher, and not "loving" at all. Same with Fred "God Hates Fags" Phelps, who would say, "No, the real Jesus would hate fags. Crucify this guy."

So no, if by religious leaders we mean everybody or even just the famous ones, I don't see it, but some of these folks are so invested in their doctrinal divergences that they wouldn't even brook disagreement from Christ Himself. But he isn't getting crucified the next time He shows up, so they'd better repent while there's still time.

[Inyokern]

The same documents upon which you predicate your belief in the earthly existence of Jesus inform me that certain Jews agitated for his death.

What year do the Gospels claim that the Jews did this? If you cannot come up the year it happened, then stop making this accusation.

[Inyokern]

Christians do not place the blame of the death of Jesus on "the Jews".

The accusation was that certain Jews "agitated" for the death of Jesus.

Prove it. Present some evidence that would hold up in court.

[Leatherneck_MT]

No sir, I think you and I are on the very same track.

I think I know the ones you are referring to. Pastor Falwell is not in that category. The ones I am referring to are the ones (as you said) who are too wrapped up in their doctrinal dogma to see the Light.

[Agnes Heep]

What year do the Gospels claim that the Jews did this? If you cannot come up the year it happened, then stop making this accusation.

I think they said 32 a.d. :-)

It's not an accusation. I don't know where you're getting this idea that somehow I'm "accusing" anyone of some kind of crime. People didn't have the same attitudes in 32 a.d. that they do nowadays--they didn't have our exquisite sensibilities. The bigwigs of Judaea were scared shitless of the Romans and were willing to part with a single human life to save the millions that would have been lost if the Romans had decided to put down a sedition militarily. Whether they calculated right or not is immaterial.

[stuartcr]

The world is a big place, how do you think it will change?