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New Humvee weapons system keeps gunner covered inside
Stars and Stripes European edition ^ | February 8, 2004 | Lisa Burgess

Posted on 02/09/2004 1:30:14 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4

ARLINGTON, Va. — One of the most dangerous jobs in Iraq is acting as a gunner during convoy movements. Even up-armored Humvees, which provide added protection for most of the crew, leave the gunner exposed.

But for the gunners assigned to four special up-armored Humvees in Iraq, convoy movements are a different experience: instead of spending the drive hunched in the turret, scanning their sectors and hoping for the best, these soldiers are comfortably seated the back of the vehicle, eyes glued to a computer screen and right hand on a PlayStation-like joystick.

If the gunner, or someone else in the convoy, identifies a threat, the press of a button instantly slews the gun mounted atop the Humvee in the right direction. Then the flip of a switch puts steel on target.

Throughout the ordeal, the gunner is safe inside the armored shell of the vehicle.

The system these gunners are testing is called CROWS, for the Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station.

Designed to be mounted aboard a variety of vehicles, from armored Humvees to the new Stryker, CROWS supports the MK19 grenade machine gun, 50-caliber M2 machine gun, M249 semi-automatic weapon, and the M240B machine gun.

A fire-control computer and stabilizers allow soldiers to shoot with great accuracy, even while the vehicle is moving, according to Maj. Adam Tasca, assistant product manager for crew-served weapons at PM Soldier, Picatinny Arsenal, N.J.

Gunners “can fire a single grenade and put it right in the chest of an adversary at 1,000 meters,” Tasca said in an interview Friday at the Pentagon, where CROWS was on display.

Moreover, the system’s sensors, which include a laser rangefinder, heavy thermal weapon sight, daytime video camera, and an image intensifier, help the gunner see targets at night and in bad weather, Tasca said.

CROWS isn’t scheduled to be fielded until 2006, but last fall, senior Army leaders realized how well suited the system might be to help protect soldiers against threats in Iraq, Pete Errante, deputy program manager for crew-served weapons at PM Soldier at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J., said Friday.

Four systems were promptly sent to Iraq for “operational testing,” Errante said. For security reasons, he declined to identify the unit using the CROWS, or its location.

Tasca, who recently spent six weeks in Iraq evaluating the system and soldiers’ reactions to it, said that so far the systems have been performing “superbly.”

“The reliability is 100 percent and [soldiers] love it,” said Tasca. “They want more of them.”

If commanders in Iraq decide to issue an “urgent needs” request that would subsequently be supported by Army leadership, CROWS manufacturer Recon/Optical, of Barrington, Ill., is ready to begin manufacturing the system immediately, Errante said.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: army; crows; humvee; iraq; marines; miltech; remoteweaponsstation; rws; uparmoedhumvee; uparmoredhumvee; wheeledarmor
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To: MPJackal
I understand the Army is taking steps to protect soldiers, but I still remember my soldiers "overnighting" body armor from Second Chance right before DS. I personally thought TCs & drivers should always have their windows down and gunners should always be "up" (I had a company of M966s).

The American public doesn't understand why Humvees and soldiers couldn't be better protected when they spend $87 billion for operations in Iraq. I sure would not want to be a notification officer for any American whose son died because of a slow procurement system. The correct answer I was taught was: "No Excuse, Sir!".

There are many ways that the shaped charge in an RPG may have been deflected or more likely not even armed, but no wheel, no engine and certainly no part of any Humvee can withstand a 'direct hit' from a RPG and take only minor damage. The whole story hasn't been told. Have a nice night.

61 posted on 02/10/2004 9:33:56 PM PST by Yasotay
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To: archy
That's about to change. Mark 48 Mod 0 SAW.

Cue The Village People: "In the Naaaavy"

No plans to employ that in the Army.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

62 posted on 02/11/2004 4:05:43 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: archy
The real question will be what comes of the proposed 6,8mm ammunition developments

That is being pushed hardest by the raggediest-ass gang of phonies and wannabees I have ever seen... led by some guy who shouts about his rank, mumbles about naval special warfare, and when you actually take a hard look at him, turns out to be a dentist. What a fraud.

Way too much weapons development is being done by tinkering hobbyists and way to little by engineers. True or false: one reason the M4 had problems with bolt rebound, is that nobody did any analysis (not even a few envelope calculations, let alone FEA) on the system as revised?

When I bag on the process pushing the 6.8, I'm not saying an improved round wouldn't be a good idea, especially when the Army sacrificed the initial performance of the M193 round by stuffing the -16 with nasty, fouling ball powder instead of the stuff designed into the system. Which I think was a version of IMR that never made the commercial market, but definitely fouled less.

But the damn thing should have science and engineering behind it, not some phony without military, scientific or engineering credentials.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

63 posted on 02/11/2004 4:21:06 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Ronzo
My knowledge of armor and tactics comes from reading books and playing wargames, I don't have any real "hands-on" experience. Yet it's amazing how often you can win any given simulation as long as your tanks have thicker armor and bigger guns than the other guy. Whether it's T-34's blowing away Panzer III's, or Tigers destroying T-34's, or M1A2's plinking away Iraqi T-72's, the better gun and thicker armor win every time.

Your priorities of life and obligations notwithstanding, the next time I'm invited to the ball, you're welcome to accompany me. I've had something in mind on the back burner since last summer, and hope to have it come to a boil around March or April, one way or the other. You needn't even polish your boots for the dance; these are tankers we're talking about, after all....

-archy-/-

64 posted on 02/12/2004 4:14:55 PM PST by archy (I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold. We'd fire no guns-shed no tears....)
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To: Yasotay
One of my favorites was to equip infantry companies with lasers for Hellfires. The Hellfires were to be launched from a 5 Ton truck. The Apache crowd stopped that idea. Oh well .....

Good news for you: The Brits picked up the idea, and have developed it as Brimstone

Bad news for you: The Russians also picked up on it, and have fielded it as the supersonic 9M114 Ataka/Sturm launcher/missile, with a range of 6KM, now being extended to 10KM. Fitted to light personnel carriers or obsolete tank chassis with their turrets removed, they can make armor operations very costly.

Sturm-S launch system on MTLV amphibious personnel carrier/ATR vehicle:


65 posted on 02/12/2004 4:23:53 PM PST by archy (I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold. We'd fire no guns-shed no tears....)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
Cue The Village People: "In the Naaaavy"

No plans to employ that in the Army.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

Shhh. Don't tell 2nd Rangers at Lewis. They'll start pressing seams down the sides of their trousers and replacing their sandhat berets with those funny little white *Dixie cup* hats.


66 posted on 02/12/2004 4:32:57 PM PST by archy (I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold. We'd fire no guns-shed no tears....)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
When I bag on the process pushing the 6.8, I'm not saying an improved round wouldn't be a good idea, especially when the Army sacrificed the initial performance of the M193 round by stuffing the -16 with nasty, fouling ball powder instead of the stuff designed into the system. Which I think was a version of IMR that never made the commercial market, but definitely fouled less.

Go ALL the way back, to the early 1950s, when the British developed the .280 EM-2 [actually a .276/7mm, usually described as the 7x44mm cartridge, or as the .280/30. Though the later version used the cartridge base and rim dimensions of the U.S. .30 cartridge in hopes that WWII-era manufacturing tooling and cartridge manufacturing machinery could be saved, an earlier versiou used a smaller diameter cartridge base and rim. And though the cartridge used a somewhat longer bullet [140 grain, IIRC] than most 5,56 ammunition, the slightly shorter case would allow the possibility of the use of the old EM-2 cartridge in weapons using a 45mm cartridge case: the 5,56x45mm M16 round and the Czech 7,62x45mm of the Vz52 carbine and Vz58 assault rifle in particular. That could allow ammunition development while the design and testing of such other possible platforms as the XM-8 or a *Super M4-plus* could be worked out.

Or the old EM-2 could be revived, using modern materials. The 700-800-yard effective range of that weapon would be nothing to sneeze at, nor should the possible effectiveness of it on soft body armor be overlooked. And it'd be a dandy in SAWs.

comparison table: British .280 caliber intermediate cartridge vs. most common modern military cartridges
ballistic data is estimated using Norma ballistic calculator and Sierra Bullets data on ballistic coefficients.

  5.56x45mm NATO 7x43mm EM-2 7.6x39mm M43 7.62x51mm NATO
bullet weight 4.01 g (62 gr) 9.08 g (140 gr) 7.9 g (122 gr) 9.72 g (150 gr)
bullet velocity, at muzzle 921 m/s  745 m/s 710 m/s 860 m/s
bullet velocity, at 300 yards (273 meters) 585 m/s 570 m/s 470 m/s 674 m/s
bullet velocity, at 550 yards (500 meters) 385 m/s 450 m/s 341 m/s 516 m/s
bullet energy, at muzzle 1700 J 2519 J 1991 J 3594 J
bullet energy, at 300 yards (273 meters) 686 J 1475 J 872 J 2207 J
bullet energy, at 550 yards (500 meters) 297 J 919 J 460 J 1294 J

--

67 posted on 02/12/2004 4:47:51 PM PST by archy (I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold. We'd fire no guns-shed no tears....)
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To: archy
I always liked the style of the EM-2. When it came time for the Brits to actually build their bullpup, though, did they ever cock it up. And the EM-2 looks like a human engineering disaster. How hot d'you think that steel receiver would get in the vicinity of the chamber? Burn skin after one mag, fry an egg after 250 rounds rapid fire?

I'm always leery of ballistic stats because they are missing important data. The two things most important in shooting people with guns are (1) can you hit the guy, and (2) will enough energy be transferred to him to significantly alter the course of his weekend? In ballistic terms you could state these as practical accuracy (which is really a product of the whole system, including the human interface engineering of the weapon and teh shooter himself) and terminal effect (which is not quantified in any generally agreed-upon way, efforts of the dentist and his various dental assistants notwithstanding).

If you don't hit your guy somewhere important, (2) is impossible. So (1) is the most critical measure, but nothing pertaining to it is in that table. To illustrate, the table you posted makes it look like the AK's M43 round has an edge on the 5.56 that improves with range. But in fact, at ranges beyond 200m, the short stock, crummy trigger, tiny sighting radius, crude sights, and high recoil-thrustline of the AK series makes hitting men problematic.

Not to mention the ballistic drop of the M43 which is getting pretty bad by 200m and approaching howitzer ballistic arcs (albeit scaled down) by 300.

Then, there is the issue of terminal effect. Give most guys who do a lot of shooting (people, not targets) a choice between the AK and the M16 series, and their choice will depend on whether we're talking about them shooting someone or someone shooting them.

By the way, if we go all the way back, isn't that to the FG-42? (What I love is army arsenals people copying the bolt design from that weapon, unaware that the designers of the FG [Haenel? Rheinmettal?] had cribbed their design from the (American) Lewis Gun of WWI.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

68 posted on 02/12/2004 10:13:08 PM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F
I always liked the style of the EM-2. When it came time for the Brits to actually build their bullpup, though, did they ever cock it up. And the EM-2 looks like a human engineering disaster. How hot d'you think that steel receiver would get in the vicinity of the chamber? Burn skin after one mag, fry an egg after 250 rounds rapid fire?

Well, the SA-80 has had its problems, but is now in its third-generation L85A2 version, just as the M16 went through its M16/M16A1/M16A2 variants. My limited experience in hauling one around a few times gave me no worries, including one occasion when the targets shot back. Interestingly, the Gurkhas noted few problems with them, and most of the glitches came when the weapons were on semiauto; there was an easy cure for that. Then the open-bolt L86A1 Light Support Weapon was known to give problems on full-chat, usually extractor/ejector failures; that's been solved with the introduction of the belt-fed FN-Minimi to many combat units, AKA the M249 SAW in U.S. service. The Royal Marines and Paras have been playing with the Minimi since the turn of the century; now the 7th Armoured's Desert Rats and the Black Watch Highlanders have had them for a year or so. And the Gurkhas have been using the *baby-gimpy* for some time....

The EM-2 had other problems, not the least its tendency to bounce hot brass off the nose of a left-handed firer. Downward ejection, or perhaps forward out the foreend is better called for, and other refinements. But extending a cheekpiece from the foreend rearward would seem possible, at least, certainly now in these days of honeycomb insulation and synthetics.

I'm always leery of ballistic stats because they are missing important data. The two things most important in shooting people with guns are (1) can you hit the guy, and (2) will enough energy be transferred to him to significantly alter the course of his weekend? In ballistic terms you could state these as practical accuracy (which is really a product of the whole system, including the human interface engineering of the weapon and teh shooter himself) and terminal effect (which is not quantified in any generally agreed-upon way, efforts of the dentist and his various dental assistants notwithstanding).

Agreed. I can think of all sorts of swell ballistic offerings that look great on paper but don't do all that well in the real world. Likewise a great cartridge can be a horrid flop if offered in a miserable weapon, and vice- versa. In these recent troubled times we seem to have the opportunity to try various equipment out on uncooperative targets, just as the Russians did in Afghanistan for a decade, and changed a few things around.

If you don't hit your guy somewhere important, (2) is impossible. So (1) is the most critical measure, but nothing pertaining to it is in that table. To illustrate, the table you posted makes it look like the AK's M43 round has an edge on the 5.56 that improves with range. But in fact, at ranges beyond 200m, the short stock, crummy trigger, tiny sighting radius, crude sights, and high recoil-thrustline of the AK series makes hitting men problematic.

Unless you're using an RPK.... Love those RPKs, just wish they had a interchangable barrel and a little better sights....

Not to mention the ballistic drop of the M43 which is getting pretty bad by 200m and approaching howitzer ballistic arcs (albeit scaled down) by 300.

One reason the Russians have gone to the 5,45 caliber in their AK74s and AN94 *Abakan* rifles...and RPK 74s. There I am, back on those RPKs again....

Then, there is the issue of terminal effect. Give most guys who do a lot of shooting (people, not targets) a choice between the AK and the M16 series, and their choice will depend on whether we're talking about them shooting someone or someone shooting them.

By the way, if we go all the way back, isn't that to the FG-42? (What I love is army arsenals people copying the bolt design from that weapon, unaware that the designers of the FG [Haenel? Rheinmettal?] had cribbed their design from the (American) Lewis Gun of WWI.

The FG42 is a great little machuine, though heavy and its ammo is bulky. I had the great fun of shooting one extensively in Switzerland in the mid-1960s, having brought a German Kar98k to a Swiss rifle match at Thun, my hosts seemed to think I deserved a treat in return for my long trip to attend. But I had plenty of very nice clean 7,9 ammo, which is a great old cartridge, just fine for knocking bad guys down at a quarter-mile. Or a half. But it throws a nasty flash at night....

Funny the Yugoslavs never picked up the manufacture of the FG42 for their postwar efforts...their *M53* MG42 copies are quite credible, and also a joy to cut loose with...and still in the original 7,92 caliber, unlike the German/Italiaqn/Austrian NATO MG42 variants.


69 posted on 02/13/2004 12:12:53 AM PST by archy (I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold. We'd fire no guns-shed no tears....)
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To: archy
A few hasty points before I am off to do pitched battle with something that erected new signs announcing its "jointness" instead of clearing out the deficient thinking:

BTW, on the original subj of the thread, this weapons station (or one very like it) is on the standard Stryker infantry carrier, and other deficiencies of the machine notwithstanding, impresses all who use it -- even where the popup targets have RPGs. Problem, the slat armour limits its use for close in defence. Needs that fireball thing that some guy sells in SA as an anti-carjacking tool.

Weapons are cool. They are a professional interest, obviously. But... give me a chance to apply better training and leadership and I'll beat better weapons every time.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

70 posted on 02/13/2004 6:28:30 AM PST by Criminal Number 18F
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To: Criminal Number 18F; archy; Yasotay; MPJackal; SJSAMPLE; stevie_d_64; StarCMC; Ronzo; Chu Gary; ...
ARMORED WARFARE: CROWS Turret Sees for Miles
71 posted on 02/16/2004 2:26:19 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Fahr na HOLE!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Wish we'd had something like that for artillery advanced party.
*slight jealousy.*
72 posted on 02/16/2004 2:28:11 PM PST by Darksheare (Thsi tagline manufactured in a fourth world sweatshop. More available for half price, 1/4th quality.)
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February 16, 2004: Yet another weapon in development was sent to Iraq and proved reliable enough to go into production immediately. This one was CROWS (Common Remotely Operated Weapon Station), a mount for various weapons (.50 caliber, 7.62mm and 5.56mm machine-guns or 40mm automatic grenade launcher.) The CROWS system contains daylight and thermal sights, a laser range finder, electric motors to move the weapon in any direction, and electronics that allow the weapon operator, inside a hummer or Stryker (or any vehicle that can support the mounting hardware and several hundred pounds of weight) to see what's in front of the gun barrel, put a target into crosshairs and fire accurately at up to a thousand meters.

CROWS was not to be ready for service until 2006. But it has been doing so well in testing, that four systems were sent to Iraq and mounted on armored hummers. After six weeks of use, the four CROWS systems had suffered no failures, performed as they were designed to and the troops using them didn't want to give them up.

Typically, weapons in a hummer turret leave the gunner very exposed to enemy fire. This is not the case with the CROWS. In addition, the day sight has telescopic capabilities, as does the thermal sight (for use at night and misty weather.) With CROWS, the gunner is safer, and so is the convoy he is with, because the CROWS sights allow the gunner to see farther, and fire more accurately. CROWS has a stabilizer and software that does all the calculations to make the most accurate shots with whatever weapon is mounted, even if the vehicle is moving. CROWS is going into production ahead of schedule because of the successful operational tests.

73 posted on 02/16/2004 2:30:02 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Fahr na HOLE!)
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To: Darksheare

M1114 w/CROWS or M981 with SP 155mm BN in DS?

74 posted on 02/16/2004 2:45:44 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Fahr na HOLE!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Heck, speckle an artillery unit with a few of them for perimeter work.
(BOTH!!)
My old light towed unit would probably end up with an M1114 with CROWS.
But any bit of equipment that gives light artillery an added ability to defend itself would be MUCH welcome.
75 posted on 02/16/2004 2:50:03 PM PST by Darksheare (Thsi tagline manufactured in a fourth world sweatshop. More available for half price, 1/4th quality.)
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To: Criminal Number 18F
The Protector Weapon Station

The AMRWS was developed by Vinghog, industrialized and further modified by Kongsberg Protech to become the Protector, Remote Weapon Station (RWS). The Protector, RWS design is today owned by Kongsberg Protech. Vinghøg is still a major sub-contractor. The Protector is now in high volume production for the US Army BCT programme and per January 2003, Kongsberg Protech has delivered more than 300 units for this programme.

XM151 Remote Weapon Station

Control Screen for XM151 RWS

76 posted on 02/16/2004 3:06:55 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Fahr na HOLE!)
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To: Darksheare
Direct Fire Canister
77 posted on 02/16/2004 3:10:14 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Fahr na HOLE!)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
105's don't really have such a beasty anymore.
What our choices would be comes down to direct fire with either an MTSQ fuze or VT fuse against people.
There's a flechette round, but it's pretty much an indirect fire only round.
From what little I remember about the ammo itself was that the flechette round was an airburster and needed the arcing flight to have max effect.
That may be incorrect info, but that's what I was told.
Basically the words were, "You're better off using HE and timed fuse settings if you need to fire directly at people. Since you're light towed, it's bad news if there's people running at you."
78 posted on 02/16/2004 3:14:54 PM PST by Darksheare (Thsi tagline manufactured in a fourth world sweatshop. More available for half price, 1/4th quality.)
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To: archy
I want one of these bad boys.

Navy Seal AA12 Assault Shotgun.

Nothing says "Clear" like a full auto 12 guage.

L

79 posted on 02/16/2004 3:21:59 PM PST by Lurker (Don't bite the hand that meads you.)
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A Hummer of an Experience
80 posted on 02/16/2004 3:24:58 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Fahr na HOLE!)
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