Posted on 02/04/2004 1:17:00 PM PST by yonif
The Bible, properly understood, does not contradict itself. When the surrounding context of a given set of verses is taken into account, the correct meaning and usage of those verses can readily be established. But when a man isolates verses (called "proof-texting") or employs inferior methods to connect scripture to scripture, then the result is erroneous doctrine and practice.
It has been the Christian position for 2000 years that saved people (born again; those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior) go to heaven when they die, and that lost people go to hell (Hades) when they die. To say that people die and are thereby extinguished like a candle flame is simply wrong.
People with the same motivations as L. Ron Hubbard.
There is no contradiction in scripture, though more than a few interpret a few passages wrongly, for the reasons I pointed out earlier. God's word on the subject is clear (1) the dead are dead, (2) the dead that are now dead and those who will be dead in Christ are resurrected at the 2nd coming of the Lord, (3) the wicked at this time are killed by the presence of the Lord, and the Earth is laid barren for 1000 years while the Saved exist in Heaven with God (4) The New Jerusalem comes to the old, desolote Earth, and all of the wicked are resurrected, and then destroyed, along with the Devil AND (5) When I say "destroyed" I mean it will be like they never were, and this punishment is eternal. This means that all of these NDEs are not from the God of the Bible, because the Bible is clear EXACTLY when humans are dead and when they are alive - righteous or otherwise.
You are in some confusion here. At death, the believer in Christ is immediately in the presence of the Lord in heaven. His physical body is of course buried in the grave, but every human has a spiritual body also. At physical death, a separation takes place, in which the spiritual body leaves the physical body. This is referred to as the intermediate state. All believers since the time of Christ have died and have immediately been received into heaven, in the presence of the Lord Jesus, in their spiritual bodies. This has been going on for 2000 years.
At some point Jesus will return to the clouds above the earth and raise the physical bodies of the dead in Christ - all believers who have died since Calvary - and transform the bodies of those believers who are alive - and this whole group, called The Church, will be taken up to be with Him in the air (1 Thess 4:13-18). This event is called the Rapture, and it is the next event on the Christian calendar. This is stage 1 of the Second Coming of Christ. It is also stage 1 of the First Resurrection.
Then, 7 years later, after the Tribulation Period (the time of Jacob's trouble) during which the terrible judgements of God will be poured out on the earth, and during which time the Antichrist will reign, Jesus will again return to the earth. This time He comes down to the earth itself to destroy the armies of the Antichrist, to cast the Antichrist and the False Prophet into the Lake Of Fire, and to inaugurate His Millenial Reign (1000 years). The believers whom He previously raised from the dead at the Rapture 7 years earlier will be with Him. This is stage 2 of the Second Coming of Christ. It is also stage 2 of the First Resurrection, for He will raise the dead bodies of the Tribulation saints and the Old Testament saints at this time. The saints will reign with Christ for 1000 years.
Similarly, all lost people since the time of Calvary - and actually, since the time of Cain and Abel - have gone to Hades upon physical death. There they await judgement in their spiritual bodies. Though Hades is awful, it is not the final destination for the lost. Upon being resurrected to appear before God at the Great White Throne Judgement of Rev 20:11-15, which occurs after the Millenial Reign of Christ, and is called the Second Resurrection (the resurrection unto damnation) the lost will receive their physical bodies back and stand before the Lord. He will review their lives and pronounce sentence on each one, from the smallest to the greatest. Each will be judged according to his deeds. The exact degree of accountability and eternal punishment will be firmly established by the Lord, and each one will be cast into the eternal Lake Of Fire, or Gehenna, the final hell.
After the damned are cast into Gehenna forever, the present heavens and the earth will be destroyed and God will make a new heaven and earth. The saints will live forever with God in heaven and upon the earth.
The worship of spirits , especially "spiritis of the dead," has been around since the time of Cush and Nimrod, when these two began the first major apostate religion after the flood. Nimrod at this time was in control of most of the known world then - his religion was their religion - and he also began to build the tower of Babel. At this time God mixed up the single human language. Different people, with the same language, left from the region of the Tower, and they took their false sun/spirit/ancestor worship with them. This is what lead to all of the false religions we have today in the "pagan" parts of the world. Monothesism and the worship of the one and only Greator, at this time, in the world was only carried on by a few human tribes, and from these tribes we get Abram. Abraham is the father of the Jewish nation, which during it's OT Biblical history many times does battle with people who practice the sun/spirit/ancestor worship - Look what happen to King Saul when he tried to talk to the dead - and it was into this Jewish nation, the people that came from the monotheistic tribe of Abraham, that the Son of God was born, lived, preached, taught, loved, died, and ROSE AGAIN, providing salvation for man! Soon after the Lord's ressurection, the new testament book of Acts takes you through the initial steps of the begining of the Christian church, and it was during this time that the apostles of Christ began to go and preach the Gospel unto the world. So, the point is, that the Gospel was preached to the pagan peoples, after the ressurection of God, and these are the same pegan peoples who believed in the sun/spirit/ancestor worship. After conversion, they held onto their pagan beliefs in "eternal souls," misunderstanding scripture. This was this same apostate belief that also made it in the Roman Catholic Chrch, and has been carried on by the RCC ever since. Unforunately, the protestants held onto this one as well. However, careful study of the word will show no contradictions, especially in regards to the Biblical and Historical evidence.
All the dead are dead - not in heaven, and not in hell - dead. I posted the scriptures to this point earlier. If you have no problem with your contradictions, what do you want me to say? You were told.
Thank you for sharing this.
Now, now, settle down. No I am not ashamed of the original gospel, in it's original language(s), properly translated, and in it's original contexts.
God is sovereign. They are His rules and it doesn't need to conform to man's limited idea of love and mercy.
My point exactly. You're telling me that your belief in a God who will burn someone forever is not limiting God's love and MERCY, while my belief that Hell will be emptied limits God's love and MERCY. Why your mind doesn't explode as you ponder this, is beyond me.
The reason I don't debate people who believe in eternal damnation, is that it is useless. They will not do the research necessary to arrive at the true conclusion of matters, because frankly, it's never bothered them enough to ponder that they worship a God (defined as Love, in the Bible) who will burn somebody forever, with no chance of escape. This same God who offered the Apostle Thomas a chance to actually feel his wounds, due to his doubt. If that's never bothered you (the logical disconnect of it all), then you will never investigate further.
Thanks for "correcting" me. Could it be that there are verses in the Bible that make one believe in eternal damnation, and that there are verses in the Bible that say Jesus is the Saviour of ALL mankind? I know it to be true, there are verses that say both. One of the points of view must be wrong. There are explanations for both sides. I choose to believe the explanations that are consistent with a God who is defined to be Love in the Bible. You may not have noticed the verses that are consistent with my point of view, because you read the Bible with preconceived notions (I used to as well, but the verses stood out to me nonetheless). I investigated further (the internet is a wonderful tool). I am satisfied with the explanations that tell me why the verses stating punishment will be eternal have been incorrectly translated and/or interpreted. You may be satisfied with the explanations given, disregarding the verses stating Jesus will save all that I have cited (plus many, many more). I know that God will remove the scales from peoples' eyes in His own time.
In conclusion, I offer you this: The eternal damnation line of thinking makes what Andrea Yates did moral and just. She, in her sick mind, was trying to save her children from eternal hell. Her mind was sick because she REALLY believed what she had been told, instead of sweeping it under the "mental rug", like you and a WHOLE lot of Christians do (and I used to). Why risk it, when she could kill them now and make sure they died innocent, thus going to be with God? Who shows more love in this case, if eternal damnation is true? God, or the merciful parent who kills their kid before they can do things that will make God burn them forever? Follow the logic and think about it. Pray about it. Then reread the Bible with new eyes. I'm not making this stuff up, it's true. It's just up to you to be bothered enough by the concept of eternal punishment to seek the truth (which is in the Bible, and the Bible only). If it doesn't bother you, you'll never seek out the real answer. It's called the pain of change. People don't change unless the pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of the change. With that in mind, I hope I've caused you some pain.
Bye, bye.
1 John: 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
That's one possibility. "Near Death Experience" is a misnomer, if these stories are accurate. It would actually be "Died and Came Back to Life" experiences.
I have no idea what your point is. You ramble on a lot but say very little effectively. If you have a point to make, try again and see if you can say it in two or three clearly written sentences.
Interesting theory, particularly when you consider the writers of the Gospels, according to history we have no reason to question, were persecuted and martyred for their testimonies. One has to wonder why people would die for a lie if they knew it was a lie.
Also, L. Ron Hubbard and the like, to my knowlege, never advocate a lifestyle of scrupulous rectitude, something even the Romans recognized in the new sect.
No thanks. I communicated everything I had to say quite clearly.
No.
The real shock is when you come face to face with death and you can smell and feel his breath.
The only problem with the scriptures you cite is they don't support your thesis. You even recognize that in some places and just cheerfully assume the thing you're trying to prove by allegorization. The question you should be concerned about answering is "If you were wrong, what evidence would you accept to prove it."
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