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To: Publius; justshutupandtakeit
I think it would be a mistake to identify Jacksonian America with that of the Founders. One thing such a schema leaves out is the increasing democratization that transformed the country, regardless of debates over federal-state relations.

Jefferson's election was often referred to as the "Revolution of 1800." Jackson's election in 1828 was also seen as a radical turn of events. As you say, there was much difference between the ideas that Hamilton or Adams had about the federal government and those that Jefferson represented. The old Federalists who supported the Washington administration were increasingly alienated in Jefferson's and then in Jackson's America. Some second generation Jeffersonians were similarly estranged by Jackson's victory, though their more radical fellows might have embraced him.

The Civil War did mark a break, but was it so catastrophic a break as to constitute the creation of a new Republic? In some of its policies, Lincoln's America represented a return to Washington's and Madison's view of government after the long Jacksonian hiatus. In other ways it was truly radical, but the radicalism wasn't necessarily something the Republicans intended to impose on the country in 1860, but was an outgrowth of war, emancipation, and the defeat of the South.

One major reason why Lincoln's America looks so different was the rise of industry. Different sorts of people came to power after 1860. Politics in an industrial nation will always look and be different from those in a more rural republic, but it would be a mistake to conclude from that that Jefferson's or Jackson's views on the Constitution were the same as those of Washington or Adams or that it was Lincoln's ideas about government that destroyed their America.

If the "Second Republic" did perish it's likely that it did so in 1860 with secession. The idea that those who destroyed the old union represented the "real Constitution" is an illusion. They felt that the Constitution of 1789 didn't provide them with sufficient protection for their interests and that a new departure was necessary. Whatever came after 1860 was bound to be different, regardless of who prevailed in Congress or on the battlefield.

It's also worth noting that when Republicans Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe were in the White House, they adopted some of the Federalist policies that they had criticized when they were in opposition. Lincoln could cite some Jeffersonian Republican precedents for his policies, and he and his idol Clay never particularly thought of themselves as Hamiltonians. Jefferson himself was a swing figure between constructive statesmen like Madison and Monroe and more radical figures like John Randolph and John Taylor.

If Jefferson's reputation has fallen in recent years one reason surely is that he was all over the map: pro-slavery but anti-slavery, libertarian but willing to countenance nationalist and restrictive policies, a revolutionary and radical with a conservative side, an agrarian isolationist republican who put the country on the road to empire, an egalitarian aristocrat. The many-sidedness that made Jefferson such an attractive, provocative, and intellectually fruitful figure in previous generations, now looks like something of a muddle and a mess. There's still a wealth of ideas and perceptions in Jefferson, but one can't blame people for throwing up their hands.

203 posted on 02/05/2004 3:32:52 PM PST by x
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To: x
Your two very learned posts leave little for me to disagree with. Except for this:

Lincoln could cite some Jeffersonian Republican precedents for his policies, and he and his idol Clay never particularly thought of themselves as Hamiltonians.

Clay was elected to Congress the same year that Hamilton died, and he immediately picked up the fallen standard of Hamilton with respect to the tariff and Hamilton's vision of a nation built on manufactures. Clay's "American Plan" was but an extention of Hamiltonian principles.

227 posted on 02/05/2004 6:57:56 PM PST by Publius (Bibimus et indescrete vivimus.)
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To: x
A bunch of excellent points.

IMO there was no new republic created after 1860 rather the contradictions within the Constitution were removed on the battlefield: would there be two nations-one free, one in chains; would the nation be industrial and more centralized, one agricultural and de-centralized? The Union's victory removed the necessity to compromise freedom and the willingness to kowtow to those who profited by REAL tyranny.

Those who attempted the destruction of the Union through the DemocRAT Rebellion were the heirs, intellectually and economically of those who were most opposed to the Constitution's ratification and to only a lesser degree of Jefferson. While he would spew incendiary rhetoric he was shrewd enough not to take it too seriously and provoke unwanted difficulties. His intellectual descendents were not.

Hamilton accurately summed up Jefferson as a "temporizer." The thing that bothers me most about him is the willingness to indulge in the politics of personal destruction so happily used by newsmen and operatives such as Callender/Bache/Beckley/Freneau who had no regard for the truth. It cost him his friendship with Washington.
247 posted on 02/06/2004 7:09:12 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (America's Enemies foreign and domestic agree: Bush must be destroyed.)
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