Losing America's Livelihood

The New American ^ | 1/26/04 | William Jasper

[Protagoras]

What "seems" to you is irrelevant.

I won't be playing "dueling verses" with you. But I will tell you that you are going down a losing road if you are going to make the case that Jesus preached stopping the love for your fellow man at some man made border. And if you are trying to make the case that worldly goods are to be ignored, then I would submit that you should be willing to throw away all your worldly possessions and your standard of living to help your fellow man in all places, including China, Mexico, Africa etc.

When asked the question at judgment about why you thought your standard of living was more important than a subsistence existence in another country, I don't think your answer that you thought he only wanted you care for certain people will be well received.

Maybe you should try a different tack, you may have more luck.

[Protagoras]

Both Karl Marx and Ayn Rand were atheists.

LOL,, a new low, even for you.

If you have a point to make on that subject, be a man for a change and make it, don't beat around the bush.

I will resist the temptation to connect evil people to Christian beliefs.

[Willie Green]

Our great nation was founded on principles of individual freedom, liberty and opportunity, NOT corporate freedom, liberty and opportunity. The excesses of unbridled, laissez-faire Capitalism can be just as oppressive of individual freedom and opportunity as authoritarian Communism.

[spacewarp]

You seem to know an awful lot about me by labeling me a Demoncrat. Hmmmm. Maybe you're right. Maybe I should take to baby killing. Maybe I should fight for gays to have the right to marry their dogs. Maybe I should start using emotion for my arguments instead of logic.

You seem to have all the answers. Wow. Why haven't I seen this before. Because I don't bow down and serve at the foot of the now liberal big-spending, pro-illegal-immigrant, anti-rights GOP, I should declare myself a Democrat.



No.

How about you just go back and read what I've actually said. I'm in this for the long haul. And if in the short run, I upset the apple cart a bit, so be it. I intend to do whatever it takes to have a successful new party in this country. One that stands for liberty and personal freedom. What suprises me is there are so many so called conservatives who want to bash me for believing in freedom. I don't deny you your right to your party. I do deny your concept that for some reason there is some sort of God given right to the only makeup of this country being only the Democrats and Republicans.

If you go back and read what I've said in the past, you'll find out that my goal is to create a strong conservative party that will fracture the Democrats. Since the Republicans want to be like them, let's clear the way. Strip out their "Yellow-dog" Democrats and the folks who actually refuse to vote Republican, but can't stand the Democrats. Yes, we will pull some Republicans, but they were going to leave anyway. And I'd rather have them in the process, than out.

So, you review your options. And review your comments. I'm as far from a Democrat as you can get. I am going third party not because I'm leaving the party, but because the Republican Party has left me.

So, don't smear me. Sheesh. If in the short term, some pain is there, so be it. I am thinking of my children. I want a country to still be here. What about you? Do you have children? Then why are you continuing to support that which offends the most liberal of Repbulicans? Why aren't you working within your party, or helping other parties to eliminate the junk like the Immigration bills, the Patriot Act, the illegal and wasteful Department of Education, the waste, fraud and abuse in the Welfare system (aside from the fact that it's extra-constitutional)? You seem to think I'm being irresponsible. I'm not. I'm doing what I see as necessary to facilitate the survival of our country. The Democrats have the topics that are being argued. Republicans seem to be interested only in implementing a "more conservative" version of their programs. They shouldn't be doing that. They should be ELIMINATING THEM!!!!!!

So, don't yell at me for wanting to make a change. I want our country to survive.

Sheesh.
Paul

[Protagoras]

Our great nation was founded on principles of individual freedom, liberty and opportunity, NOT corporate freedom, liberty and opportunity.

So you would be in favor of NO trade laws for individuals? Ok, lets go for that.

I realize that you are a Naderite Democrat anti corporation populist so I'll ask you to go down that road instead of going against your "religion".

The excesses of unbridled, laissez-faire Capitalism can be just as oppressive of individual freedom and opportunity as authoritarian Communism.

Sounds precisely like what a fascist says. It becomes more clear everyday where you are coming from.

[Consort]

You seem to know an awful lot about me by labeling me a Demoncrat.

Learn to read. I said you should vote Democrat; I didn't say you were a Democrat. In fact I don't think you identify with any party.

Maybe I should take to baby killing. Maybe I should fight for gays to have the right to marry their dogs. Maybe I should start using emotion for my arguments instead of logic.

Maybe that shows that you tend to overreact.

I intend to do whatever it takes to have a successful new party in this country. One that stands for liberty and personal freedom.

If such a party gains power, it will do exactly what the major parties are now doing to retain and grow its power. If it grows, many of the Dems and Repubs you now hate will switch to "your" party and you'll back to square one.

I do deny your concept that for some reason there is some sort of God given right to the only makeup of this country being only the Democrats and Republicans.

You left out the Independents, and it doesn't matter what you deny.

I'm as far from a Democrat as you can get.

Not if you help them win elections; and that's what you'd be doing. Discontented people like you helped to elect the Clintons. They didn't mean to......but they did.

I am going third party not because I'm leaving the party, but because the Republican Party has left me.

You forgot the barf alert.

So, don't smear me. Sheesh.

You don't need my help. Geez.

I am thinking of my children. I want a country to still be here.

We all are. We all do.

So, don't yell at me...don't label me.....don't smear me.....

Chill out.

[ninenot]

laissez-faire Capitalism can be just as oppressive of individual freedom and opportunity as authoritarian Communism.

With the same results: poverty in the hoi-polloi, wealth among the elites.

Not a co-incidence, by the way.

[ninenot]

Willie doesn't endorse Fascism either.

Let's go back to your advocacy of slave-labor wages both here AND in the Third World, so that unrestricted Capital may dominate--the fervent wish of Ms. Rand, who was humiliated and thrown out of polite Conservative society in the 1960's...

by Bill Buckley(?) Pinging the Elk for verification.

[Protagoras]

Not a co-incidence, by the way.

Another Bill Clinton/Nader "managed economy" guru heard from.

[Protagoras]

Willie doesn't endorse Fascism either.

Fascism is where property is privately owned but government controlled. He, and you, are fascists if you believe in that, whether you know it or not.

[Protagoras]

Let's go back to your advocacy of slave-labor wages

The last hiding place for those who cannot prevail against the truth is to tell the big lie about what they say. Pathetic, as usual.

[spacewarp]

In fact I don't think you identify with any party.

So, you are basically saying that even though I identify with the Patriot Party, that you don't think I identify with any party? Does that mean you don't believe that I am identifying with the Patriot Party, or that you don't believe the Patriot Party is actually a Party?

Maybe that shows that you tend to overreact.

Maybe it shows that you don't understand sarcasm.

If such a party gains power, it will do exactly what the major parties are now doing to retain and grow its power. If it grows, many of the Dems and Repubs you now hate will switch to "your" party and you'll back to square one.

Actually, I don't "hate" the Democrats and Republicans. I "hate" their liberalism. I find it offensive and a destructive element to our society. And I find that a group of people at the top of each party is responsible for dragging us there. We don't have people like that at the top of our party. We may get some of them, but we'll work at weeding them out. And yes, if we do get to the point of liberalism, I will have to start over. No, I don't think we'll do the same as the two majors. I think we'll actually use reason and logic. We'll use the tools provided called the Constitution and bring our country back on track.

You left out the Independents, and it doesn't matter what you deny.

Actually, it DOES matter what I deny. I deny that there is some sort of God-given lock on the control of our country by the two major parties. If I didn't honestly believe that, then why would I even try? There are people like you in this country that seem to think there's this unbreakable power that keeps the two parties in control. I think that things are reaching a shatterpoint. Not much longer now, and one of those two is going to be out of power. Completely. I think its going to be the Democrats. And I'm pushing for that hard. So, just give up on trying to belittle my points of view.

You forgot the barf alert.

If you can't handle my assessment of the last few years of big spending, massive illegal immigration despite 9/11, giveaways to our enemies and in general a failure to approach freedom in any way shape or form without barfing, then tough. I believe the President has done some good things with regards to the War on Terror, and I'm happy he was there for 9/11. But, how many times am I going to have to open the paper and feel my blood pressure boil due to another "steal the left's agenda" program being passed or promoted by the President and the Republicans? You just don't get it. Where does the conservatism show up in the Prescription Drug program? Where does the conservatism show up in allowing and even encouraging illegal immigrants to raid and invade our country untouched by offering them amnesty?? The Republican Party has basically decided to invade the left to take the Democrats out. I like the idea of taking them out, but I don't like the fact that they are going so far to the left. So, I'm glad that I'm working towards an option so that when they decide to stay there and shove the Democrats to the curb, there will BE a place for the conservatives.

We all are. We all do.

Then why are you attacking me for actually taking a stand and saying enough is enough? If you are conservative and Republican (which more and more seems like a prison sentance than a blessing) then why aren't you standing in your party leaders offices every day saying "STOP IT!!!!!" Why aren't you calling them and writing them? Why aren't you doing something? Why don't I? I am doing something. I'm working on an alternative, because the leaders don't care anymore. They want their power and they don't care if you and I don't like it.

Chill out. I'll chill out when our country is back on track. And at this point, it's nowhere near the rails.

[Consort]

Does that mean you don't believe that I am identifying with the Patriot Party,...

Yes. You said: "I'm not voting for W. I'm voting either Constitution Party or Libertarian." And now you add the Patriot Party to the mix. You're all over the map and nowhere at the same time.

Actually, I don't "hate" the Democrats and Republicans.

Good.

There are people like you in this country that seem to think there's this unbreakable power that keeps the two parties in control.

I think that power is called "We the People" — voters across the country. The majority doesn't seem to agree with you at this time.

Where does the conservatism show up in...

When enough voters want more conservatism to show up, then they will vote for it. Yes? No?

Then why are you attacking me...smearing me, yelling at me...labeling me...

Drop the persecution complex.

[Willie Green]

I realize that you are a Naderite Democrat anti corporation populist

You've been on this forum long enough to know that I'm actually an America First! Buchanan conservative anti-globalization populist.
And I've been on this forum long enough to know that you're simply a disingenuous antagonist who relies on deliberate misinterpretation and misrepresentation of others' points of view with intent to inflame and marginalize.
((((yawn)))) Been down that road too many times.
Go harass somebody else with that idiocy.
I'm not interested in chasing you around in rhetorical circles.

[Protagoras]

I'm not interested in chasing you around in rhetorical circles.

What you really are interested in is not being exposed for what you are. An anti freedom enemy of all that this country promised to be.

Pat the whacko lost a long time ago, get over it.

[Willie Green]

What you really are interested in is not being exposed for what you are. An anti freedom enemy of all that this country promised to be.

What I am REALLY interested in is expressing MY OWN views on issues.
NOT in having them distorted by some character-assassinating flying monkey.
Thank-you for once again putting your "tactics" on display for all to see.

[spacewarp]

I am a member of the American Patriot Party. For the 2004 election, we will not be having a member of our party moving forward to attempt to compete in the Presidential race. I have clearly identified myself repeatedly as a member of the Patriot Party. I'm not "all over the map". I stated that I will vote Constitution Party or Libertarian because I firmly believe that the only way to enact real change is to actualy make a change.

I think that power is called "We the People" — voters across the country. The majority doesn't seem to agree with you at this time.

The majority of the people think they don't have a choice. They don't know any different and the media and people like you don't give any creedance to the chance for a new party to move forward. So, it has to be done through a grass roots method. "We the People" as you refer to, for the most part, want to do the things in their daily lives that allow them to just meander through the day, and be entertained on the weekend. They usually don't care too much about politics except around election time. Informed positions and informed consumers for the most part usually entertain the ideas of freedom and liberty differently than the average Joe. I think, given time and positions, the positons of our party, which are for personal freedom and reduction of waste, fraud and abuse in the federal government will win out.

Strangely enough, we've seen basically, that the movie The American President has many truisms. Despite the liberal slant, some of the quotes were perfect for our time.

People want leadership, and in the absence of leadership, they will listen to anyone who steps up to the microphone.

The Democrats, mainly John Kerry are "stepping up to the microphone". But the problem is, so is Bush. He's not providing the conservative leadership he needs to. So, if you think that leading people to conservative decisions in their voting are not a positive thing, then move over. And if you think that my vote doesn't count, or is for the Democrat, you're just wrong. EVERY vote counts. (Unfortunately, that also includes the fraud votes in some states.)

As for the cute idea of pasting together some of my comments to make it look like I've got some sort of persecution complex, you have to admit that you have been somewhat agressive in your lashing out at me for not worshipping at the shrine of the GOP.

[Consort]

I am a member of the American Patriot Party. ...I will vote Constitution Party or Libertarian...

You made my point.

The majority of the people think they don't have a choice. They don't know any different...

And, of course, you know better than them, you're smarter than them, more politically aware than them, superior in every way...

Fragmenting the conservative base across a bunch of third rate Third Parties will enable the Liberals for years to come, IMO. Maybe that's your goal.

[Jim Cane]

This is a fact of life that aint gonna change for you LUDDITES!

Homelessness and starvation are facts of life, too. Most humans can starve far more quickly than they can master robot repair. A starving man will kill a fat man for his marbled meat, even though the fat man may dangle a hands free vacuum cleaner in front of him and insist that the starving man may purchase it much more cheaply now.

Of course the more likely scenario is for fat men to simply pay more in taxes to fund more government protection from the angry skinny guys. Government sponsored blackmail (socialism).

Another alternative is to simply disenfranchise the jobless, and send wackenhut troops door to door to remove any guns that the un-incorporated may harbor, and not worry about it. (fascism)

Either way, it's the death of the Republic.

[Protagoras]

What I am REALLY interested in is expressing MY OWN views on issues.

No , you are interested in expressing Pat's long ago discarded views. Pat lost, get over it.