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Economic Rivals Given “Go-Ahead” to Destroy Rest of Domestic Manufacturing by Bush’s Stand on Trade
Trade Alert.us ^
| 1/30/04
| William Hawkins
Posted on 01/31/2004 2:47:00 PM PST by madeinchina
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To: e_castillo
I really doubt that we are seeing real change in that direction As an aside, I think that's just completely wrong; witness China's entrance into the WTO. Do understand what sort of hoops that China had to jump through to do that? What sort of rules to which it submits itself? It is bound by every other WTO country in the world--all 160 of them, or whatever the number is now.
To: Reaganwuzthebest
It doesn't matter what you post that proves your point is correct, it's all hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil, free trade is wonderful and real wages are skyrocketing. They certainly prevaricate.
122
posted on
02/01/2004 10:07:04 AM PST
by
sarcasm
(Tancredo 2004)
To: Viva Le Dissention
Yeah, because 40 years of boycotts with Cuba have brought Castro to his knees.
Under Reagan the Soviets were boycoted by many different countries. If you will remember that a French division of GE sold the Soviets pipeline compressors and this set off a huge political fight. With Cuba you only have the US and no presure being brought against anyone other countries to enforce our boycott an see it the end. Try asking Mexico to stop trading with Cuba! Mexicans look up to Castro as a true freedon fighter against capitalism!
Do you honestly think that capitalism can exist without freedom?
Yes. Try going to a .com site when in China. Oh wait all the internet cafes have been shut down!
I really would like to see freedom come to China but I feel we are going about wrong.
To: raybbr
If free trade is the goal then there would be no barriers whatsoever, right. So, then how can there be "degrees of evil"? Wouldn't they be "all evil, all the time" if I took your logic? By the way, you haven't answered my question to cite anywhere that there is free trade. And since we both know that place doesn't exist, how can the global economy work? I know you think you came up with a pithy reply to answer that but, if trade restrictions that exist today are so bad, then, how is it that we have a working global economy?
Let me make this easy. The goal should be trade with no impediments. We have a degree of that in this country. We should have it to a greater degree. Some, like you I suspect, want more impediments. People with that agenda have no place in a capitalistic society.
124
posted on
02/01/2004 10:12:35 AM PST
by
ClintonBeGone
(<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
To: jpsb
One good thing is the American middle class aprears to be showing signs that it understands what is happening. An once fuly aware I believe the workers will toss out of office anyone and everyone that spouts the free trade BS line. Sure hope that turns out to be the case. I know in some of the southern states free trade is now being used as a litmus test for determining what candidates to support. That's a good sign not everyone is going to go along to get along.
To: madeinchina
Let's see, we've got just a TON of really bad stuff happening and accelerating - some person said you can't have open immigration and a welfare state. Well, baby, how about:
open immigration (supported by the president & dems)
rising welfare & entitlements
rising costs for medicare (oh yea, the drug benny).
H1-B's, illegal Mexicans, outsourcing - all supported and funded at the federal level.
3 million manufacturing jobs gone for good.
a federal bureaucracy that will not ever shrink.
corporate welfare.
farm welfare.
omnibus pork bills.
$87 billion to make iraq back into a third-world country.
Only a couple of things can happen - raise taxes, print more money, cut services, or country goes down the tubes. I just don't think either party will do anything about the coming train wreck.
To: e_castillo
And China isn't capitalist: that's the point.
Yes, the Chinese people are oppressed. Why? Because it is not a capitalist country. The more the US pushes China to become modernized and capitalist, the more free the country will become.
The events of the last ten years in China certainly bear witness to this statement.
I have to leave now, so we can finish this discussion another day, but understand that my side is winning, and my side will prevail. Anti-free trade people are going the way of the buggy whip and the dodo. Dick Gephardt and Howard Dean, both outspoken critics of NAFTA (forget the fact that we had a FTA with Canada long before NAFTA and we have FTAs with dozens of other countries), are getting smoked in the primaries and polls around the country. It's just a matter of time. FTAA is on the way, LAFTA is on the way, and hopefully Bush will restart the Doha round with more success than in last Sept.; I think he will. Ya'll just might as well start getting used to it.
To: ClintonBeGone
Some, like you I suspect, want more impediments. People with that agenda have no place in a capitalistic society. Word.
To: Viva Le Dissention
"WTO allows a country that imports an item which was subsidized in production by the home country to levy a tariff on the item equal to that of the subsidy in the home country--so, really what you are saying is not relevant to our discussion. The WTO allows a country to negate the subsidy. "
If you believe that the WTO rules are being followed by the PRC then you have already had way too much koolaid. Why do you think our Commerce department recently was ranting about fair trade with China - to no avail?
Why do you think our textiles and furniture companies are going out of business? China has been dumping goods with the intention of driving them out of business.
Yet, China still qualifies as a 3rd world country in need of our tax money through OPIC. Outrageous.
And, all the while, they are stealing patents from Wrigley's Gum to Cisco routers.
Is the Koolaid sweet enough for you?
To: Viva Le Dissention
Frustrating isn't it? Good God, what type of economic education have these people had? Or better yet, what type of parent would indoctrinate their child with such poison? If this was the 50's I wonder if the government would revoke their citizenships for such blasphemy!
130
posted on
02/01/2004 10:23:39 AM PST
by
ClintonBeGone
(<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
To: ClintonBeGone
Some, like you I suspect, want more impediments. I have never said that.
My point is that free traders generally want the rules turned to be advantageous to their point of view or rather, to their business.
I hardly think that "no barriers or rules" for trade would fly in this economy. Corporations would become voracious in their zeal to destroy one another to become the "top dog". And, the result would be anarchy regarding business in the world.
Super-capitalism and socialism both have one flaw: They do not take into account human nature. Whereas leaders in the socialist society become greedy, by human nature, and seek the suppression of the people they claim to serve. Super-capitalism has the same ends: The nature of the human is to conquer, mostly by oppresion. The super-capitalists can only get to be number one by destroying/absorbing/taking-over its competitors. Were there a true super-capitalist economy we could count on the return of the destructive nature of coporations using people as fodder. We need something in between that provides checks and balances to both ends. Free traders alway argue that we need the world economy to be strong so that all benefit. How is that accomplished without the eventual growth of coporations into world powers who take and take and don't care what they leave in their wake?
131
posted on
02/01/2004 10:33:02 AM PST
by
raybbr
(My 1.4 cents - It used to be 2 cents, but after taxes - you get the idea.)
To: Reaganwuzthebest
I know in some of the southern states free trade is now being used as a litmus test for determining what candidates to support.
Only by the economic luddites. You see how well Pat Buchanan did in his efforts. Its just noise from a bunch of union thugs unhappy that they have to put in an honest day's work for a day's pay.
132
posted on
02/01/2004 10:33:38 AM PST
by
ClintonBeGone
(<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
To: sarcasm
And which way do cost of living move?
To: raybbr
I hardly think that "no barriers or rules" for trade would fly in this economy. Corporations would become voracious in their zeal to destroy one another to become the "top dog". And, the result would be anarchy regarding business in the world. Super-capitalism and socialism both have one flaw: They do not take into account human nature.
LOL you think corporations don't do that already? Who do you think they're competing against?
Regarding capitalism, its the ultimate in understanding of human nature. It understands that people are motivated by financial reward. People always act in what they perceive as their best interest. That's why capitalism works. If you don't appreciate that fact then we're much farther apart in this discussion than I first imagined.
134
posted on
02/01/2004 10:36:43 AM PST
by
ClintonBeGone
(<a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/~clintonbegone/">Hero</font></a>)
To: RussianConservative
And which way do cost of living move? It's certainly not going down.
135
posted on
02/01/2004 10:40:19 AM PST
by
sarcasm
(Tancredo 2004)
To: ClintonBeGone
Only by the economic luddites. You see how well Pat Buchanan did in his efforts. Have you seen the latest polls in South Carolina? Kerry is practically tied with Bush should he be the nominee. That's hardly a few economic luddites.
Maybe free trade wasn't the biggest of issues when Buchanan ran in the early and mid-nineties but it's picking up now. And you're forgetting Perot in 1992 won 19% of the vote on his anti-NAFTA plank.
Those who who wish to deny the real concerns people are having over job losses are in for a rude awakening.
To: Viva Le Dissention
We will win. Free trade will win. By the time the elections roll around in Nov., we will have had 16 straight years of Presidents who have pushed a free trade agenda. It will not change. Ronald Reagan saved Harley-Davidson with a Protective Tariff.
Ronald Reagan and the Republican Party of Ronald Reagan had a very different definition of free trade from this administration.
Here is a direct quote Ronald Reagan's 1984 Republican Party Platform:
"But free trade MUST BE FAIR trade. It works only when all trading partners accept open markets for goods, services, and investments. We will review existing trade agreements and vigorously enforce trade laws including assurance of access to all markets for our service industries. We will pursue domestic and international policies that will allow our American manufacturing and agricultural industries to compete in international markets. WE WILL NOT TOLERATE THE LOSS OF AMERICAN JOBS TO nationalized, subsidized, protected foreign industries, particularly in STEEL, automobiles, mining, footwear, textiles, and OTHER BASIC INDUSTRIES. This production is sometimes financed with our own tax dollars through international institutions. We will work to stop funding of such projects that are detrimental to our own economy."
http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/site/docs/doc_platforms.php?platindex=R1984
Previous Republican Party Platforms were vigorously in favor of protecting American employees.
We continue to drift away from our Constitutional duty to 'regulate Commerce' in a way that will "insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity"
And we now have a gigantic trade deficit with the largest Communist nation in the world. A nation that imprisons Christians and uses forced prison labor. A nation that owns half of every business within its borders.
"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. "
To: 1rudeboy
False. Big Auto has entire departments devoted to calculating "domestic content," and it is domestic content that determines whether or not an auto gets a "Made in U.S.A." label.I was talking about NAM statistics, not product labeling.
Futhermore, the FTC decided not to govern how little domestic content a vehicle must have to be 'Made in USA". Just that domestic content is reported.
Read for yourself FTC.
Whether a vehicle is "Made in the USA" is up to the buyer.
To: RussianConservative; All
The master owns a large estate on the hill over looking our village. In the valley next to the hill is the master factory. The workers in the factory made the tables and chairs that fill the homes of many in this part of the world. Life was good, the master employed in one way or another a good portion of the village workers. Some worked in his factory other worked on his estate, and many more worked housing and feeding those that worked for the master.
Then they came, they opened a store and sold tables and chairs for less then the master paid for the unfinished wood needed to build his table and chairs. Everyone was very happy to get the tables and chairs at a fraction of the cost of the mastered tables and chairs. Everyone except the master and the factory workers. We all bought them and filled our homes with new furniture. Life was good and getting better.
For a while the master continued to run his factory, but soon the warehouses were full of tables and chairs only a few buy. The master closed the factory and with great regret told his workers that there were no more jobs for them. The workers had no more money and stopped buying houses and stopped buying cars and stopped paying to have their lawns mowed and homes cleaned. They stopped eating out and stopped going out.
The little stores that service the workers tried to stay in business, but without the workers spending their money most of the stores had to close too. Only the food store and the drug store managed to stay open.
Now life is not so good, only a lucky few have jobs and they have to pay most of their money in taxes so that all the unemployed can get food stamps to eat with. The children have no hope of making a better life here, the workers have no hope of ever finding a job here, and the master stays just stays in his estate, heart broken by what they did to his people and his village.
This is what free trade does when first world labor is put into completion with third world labor. Cheap goods = cheap labor = subsistence level living.
139
posted on
02/01/2004 11:09:24 AM PST
by
jpsb
(Nominated 1994 "Worst writer on the net")
To: Batrachian
What do you propose? Let's go with the democrat idea of a world minimum wage. Let's go with unionization and collective bargaining all over the world. Let's force environmental and OSHA style regulations on the rest of the world. Let's drive labor costs up across the world. That giant sucking sound you'll be hearing is the sound of the whole world's economy going down the toilet and your wallet emptying out as you overpay for consumer goods. Why don't you go vote for Dean?
140
posted on
02/01/2004 11:10:33 AM PST
by
jayef
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