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January 26th, 2004 Hardball interview.

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL, live in New Hampshire.

John Kerry is still ahead in the polls here, but Howard Dean is closing the gap.

Yesterday, I sat down with the front-runner‘s wife, Teresa Heinz Kerry.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEWS: Teresa, what is it like to be the wife of a candidate who has come from the back of the pack there in December all the way up to the top in this race for the nomination?

TERESA HEINZ KERRY, WIFE OF SENATOR JOHN KERRY: Well, it‘s the back of the pack for some, but I never thought he was at the back of the pack. And the reason I didn‘t, because I worked very hard.

And, in Iowa, specifically, if you work very hard, you‘re working with caucus-goers, meaning the people who are actually going to vote. And you get a pretty good readout on how they are, how they respond, whether they sign a caucus, the papers, and they say, I‘m committed to you. And after campaigning as hard as I did, I thought to myself five weeks ago that John would probably come in high second, if not first.

And, in fact, when I left New Hampshire last week and I was in the office with the kids in Manchester, I said, all right, we‘re going to do high second or we‘re going to come in first. And I really believed that. I don‘t think I say that because I presumed anything. I just said that, with 32 years in politics, having a gut feel and knowing how to read people and how people read you, unless we made a terrible mistake in the last week, we were going to do very well.

Now, did I think we would do as greatly as we did? No, I didn‘t read that. We also had a tremendous, tremendous organization. And all the Iowans kept saying to me, people outside don‘t understand how a strong organization here makes a huge difference. And they‘re right, you know?

So there‘s a lot I didn‘t know. But I do know about people. And I do know how to read people. And I do also know that, when you‘re honest with people and they‘re honest with you, they are not going to tell you they‘re going to go and caucus for you if they don‘t. They don‘t have to.

And so I had a completely different set of—I was very peaceful about it. I was not nervous. I was working very hard. I did—I had a lot of fun campaigning in Iowa and a lot of fun here, because the kind of campaign that I did was rather intimate. You know, you could be talking to 100 people or 25 people. It didn‘t matter. But the situation and the expectation of people who talk to you in Iowa is a direct talk conversation. And I like that.

MATTHEWS: You‘re reading people. Read your husband for a second, Senator Kerry.

A year ago, he said to me in a hallway: I‘m going to win this war. I‘m going to win this election. I‘m going to beat President Bush. I‘m going all the way. Believe me.

And then, when the numbers were down in the poll, he would do HARDBALL. And he would say to me off camera: Believe me. I‘m going to win this thing. Got it?

HEINZ KERRY: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

MATTHEWS: That self-confidence, is that there? Is that for real?

HEINZ KERRY: John—yes, it is. John—John always does well.

He is a fighter, in a sense. And he has—the reason John runs—how would you say this? The reason he is running is not temporal, if you know what I mean. And I don‘t want to give him more than he deserves. But he has some lofty ideals and he really believes that he can make a difference and lead people.

And it is also interesting to know that he is the only Senate—senator from the 1984 Congress that has never run for president, not that that is a reason. But he has been waiting. And I think he really felt:

This is my time to try. And I‘ll give it my all. And when he gives it his all, that‘s it. He does.

Now, I think he was slowed down by his operation and all that that entailed. And I know that it does change your energy some.

MATTHEWS: Sure.

HEINZ KERRY: Any operation does.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Because he tried to run his own campaign.

HEINZ KERRY: No. I think that he just went too early. It was 10 days after the operation. He was back in California.

MATTHEWS: Oh, that operation, the real one.

HEINZ KERRY: That operation.

MATTHEWS: Oh, I thought you meant the political operation.

HEINZ KERRY: No, the prostate one.

MATTHEWS: Right.

HEINZ KERRY: And I have had actually several friends who have been

operated since by the same doctor who have just been amazed at how John

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Did he jump up too fast?

(CROSSTALK)

HEINZ KERRY: Yes, I thought so.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

HEINZ KERRY: I mean, you know, but I‘m a wife, you know.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: You wanted him to take off?

(CROSSTALK)

HEINZ KERRY: I wanted him to really rest for a week during the summer and do nothing. And he didn‘t, because there‘s just too much.

And I think, when you feel, or anybody feels a little weak or debilitated, it slows everything down.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

HEINZ KERRY: And I...

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the scrutiny. I don‘t want to hold you up too much tonight—the scrutiny of the campaign, the scrutiny on Dr. Dean, Mrs. Dean—“Where is she? Why isn‘t she here?”—the scrutiny on that tape recording last week of Howard Dean in that performance he put on election night. Do you think there‘s too much scrutiny by the press and we miss something by being too intent?

HEINZ KERRY: You know, I—I decided early on in this campaign that I was going to try to do three things, one, stay strong, healthy; two, stay humble; and, three, develop the best sense of humor I could.

And so, when I‘ve seen for myself stories that are what I consider inaccurate or too unkind, I think, well, that‘s their problem. And when I see fluff pieces, I say, well, that‘s not me either. And somewhere between the fluff and the nonsense is a real person. It‘s me. And sometimes, people get it right and sometimes they don‘t.

And I think Dr. Dean—I feel badly for her, because she‘s—she might—I don‘t know her, but she might be very shy. She might not like to give speeches. She might just like to take care of people. And, you know, she should be able to do that. And I don‘t know them. I mean, I‘ve only shaken hands with Governor Dean once. So I don‘t know. But I don‘t think she should be—I think it would be unusual for the American people to have a spouse of a president that is not—quote—“a spouse of a president.”

MATTHEWS: I understand.

HEINZ KERRY: On the other hand, if you have a woman president and you have a man who is a lawyer or a general, how is he going to play spouse? I don‘t quite know. And I think, ultimately...

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: And Bill Clinton might discover that some day.

Let me ask you, do you look forward—being humble, do you look forward to being first lady? Can you imagine being in the East Wing, putting together diplomatic receptions and traveling the world?

HEINZ KERRY: You know, I try not to go there. I try not to go there.

MATTHEWS: Why?

HEINZ KERRY: I will—because I...

MATTHEWS: Is it a jinx?

HEINZ KERRY: No. You know what? I have to focus on what I‘m doing.

I focus on my work.

I think I can do a good job, if I get there, because I do some of that anyway. That‘s not the reason to go there, specifically. But if I could leverage the work that I do in terms of my own work now with other people and other communities in the country, enabling people to pick themselves up, that‘s what I would like to do.

MATTHEWS: Just a couple more questions.

What is it like to have somebody like this big figure, Ted Kennedy? I know your husband works with him every day in the Senate and is used to dealing with him politically. But what‘s it like to have that big guy arrive on the scene of a conflict, when you really need him, maybe?

HEINZ KERRY: You know, I‘ve gotten to know Ted and Vicki, and particularly because of Vicki‘s parents, Doris and Edmund Reggie, with whom I‘ve become very close. And Mrs. Reggie looks like my mom and my aunt. And so, since neither of them is alive, she‘s kind of...

MATTHEWS: Well, Judge Reggie is quite a character.

HEINZ KERRY: But I love—I love Doris, too.

In any case, so I see them. And what I‘ve gotten to know about Ted Kennedy is to see him as the youngest of the family. And when you see him as the youngest kid in the family, he is really mischievous and fun. And I‘ve also seen him with a boatload of 20 grand nephews and nieces, everybody‘s little children. And they worship that man.

And so, we see him as a political figure, yes. But when you see him as a (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE) to all of those little kiddies and the love that all of these—quote—“children,” these nephews and nieces have for him, it is a very endearing quality. It really humanizes him.

MATTHEWS: Do you think he, being the brother, the last brother of the Kennedys, and one time in his life, going for the presidency, has sort of a bittersweet feeling about this of helping another guy from Massachusetts?

HEINZ KERRY: I don‘t think—I don‘t think so. I think, maybe 10 years ago, maybe he would have. I don‘t know that. But I don‘t feel that at all. I just feel a lot of support and encouragement and faith coming from him to John.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Let‘s talk news—let‘s make some news, Teresa. After the results come in Tuesday night, you and Senator Kerry are going to head to Missouri, which is a very important state.

HEINZ KERRY: Is it?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: It‘s important because if it

(CROSSTALK)

HEINZ KERRY: You looked at my schedule. I don‘t know my schedule.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Well, you‘re going to visit the state of Dick Gephardt, who has left the field.

HEINZ KERRY: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Do you think he‘s going to endorse Senator Kerry?

HEINZ KERRY: I honestly have no idea. I don‘t

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Do you think he is a prospect for V.P.?

HEINZ KERRY: I don‘t know.

MATTHEWS: Have you talked about V.P. with your husband at all?

HEINZ KERRY: I put in a request for myself, because I can‘t get it anyway.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: You can‘t get it because you‘re not...

HEINZ KERRY: I know, because I‘m not American-born.

(CROSSTALK)

HEINZ KERRY: No.

You know what? I have tremendous, tremendous respect for Dick. And, in fact, I told him when the AFSCME me and the AFL-CIO endorsements went elsewhere that I was surprised, because I think, if anybody deserves, at least in the old context of labor and party politics, deserved the endorsement, it was Dick. He has really been faithful to them.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

HEINZ KERRY: Which is not to say that someone like John or someone else wouldn‘t be faithful to the principles that protect labor.

MATTHEWS: OK.

HEINZ KERRY: They would just do it differently.

But I think his speech, I saw his speech on TV. I cried, because I was sad for him.

MATTHEWS: Can I ask you a tough question?

HEINZ KERRY: And he had a lot of—a lot of dignity.

MATTHEWS: I‘m out of time here. I have to do one tough question.

Do you think George W. Bush deserves a second term?

HEINZ KERRY: Oh, God. You know, I don‘t think anybody really deserves to be president, if you really think of the responsibilities.

But I must say, he came in with a lack of curiosity and interest about the job. And I think that the results of that was offending a lot of people around the world and really, almost seemingly, being afraid to think on the complex problems that we live in as opportunities, but rather as silos to be disposed of.

And, you know, the world is really a very complex, but very interesting place. And I think you can‘t have someone who is afraid to be Socratic or is afraid to really go there, who is afraid to even make a fool of themselves, only because they‘re thinking out loud, not because they‘re not thinking.

And so I would say, Mr. President, if you want to stay there, please listen to Americans. Don‘t tell them.

MATTHEWS: OK, thank you very much, Teresa Heinz Kerry. Thanks for joining us.

HEINZ KERRY: Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)