Posted on 01/26/2004 5:37:55 AM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
Edited on 04/13/2004 2:45:32 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
It is much easier to defend a moon base than attack it. And there is no guarantee we will know what they are up to. They could launch from the far side and we wouldn't know what was going on until the reentry vehicles hit the atmosphere.
Why would China 'own' space just because they can finally get into it?
That is quite possible. Sure, we could take it back, but you are leading a charge uphill. You might take the hill, but it is going to hurt. They would hold all the initiative in a land war back here. They could start it, hit us, and take out our major intelligence assets in space. It would be Pearl Harbor II, and probably more devastating.
Are you claiming we should claim it until someone knocks us off? Just come out and say it if you are, no harm done.
I wish, but that won't happen. Rather, our presence will prevent the Chinese from making an unfettered claim.
And, as with the Great Northern Railway, private enterprise can provide them when there is a market demand for them, without politicians reaching into our pockets to enrich themselves and their cronies.
You are deliberately choosing the worst possible outcome and ignoring scores of successful examples. GNR was not the end result of railroad subsidy, it was one of those unfortunate side effects, just as shuttle and station are unfortunate side effects of trying to develop space infrastructure. And the shuttle and station are largely the result of democratic sabotage of promising republican ideas. The shuttle could have been a giant leap forward in launcher technology if congress hadn't done the soviets a favor by sabotaging it. The space station could be much more useful if Clinton hadn't turned it into welfare for the Russians.
The democrats are constantly trying to sabotage national security and national defense. Just because they are occassionally successful and get a WTC bombing for their efforts is no reason to shut down the CIA and defense departments.
Deferring to them about what? Do they ask us for permission to go into space? To go to the moon?
Space will only be the tip of the iceburg. Look at the relationship between the US and France now. We will take France's place, and China will take our place.
The whole world will see China as a shining success to model their governments after and us as has-beens relegated to the dustbin of history.
Another imaginary hobgoblin for the politicos to take and spend our money chasing. I could sit around and dream up BS doomsday scenarios all day with you. That's not the basis for government to seize and direct billions of dollars of assets against imaginary threats.
GNR was not the end result of railroad subsidy, it was one of those unfortunate side effects, just as shuttle and station are unfortunate side effects of trying to develop space infrastructure.
What are you talking about? The GNR was built without any use of imminent domain, without any political subsidies, and was profitable without any political bailouts. It stands as stark evidence that the brute force of government seizing property and tax dollars isn't required for development of infrastructure.
And the shuttle and station are largely the result of democratic sabotage of promising republican ideas.
It's a boondoggle because it's a boondoggle, not because of the democrats. You need to spit up the hook, line and sinker if you think every instance of government waste is because of the democrats.
Just because they are occassionally successful and get a WTC bombing for their efforts is no reason to shut down the CIA and defense departments.
Give the strawman another kick! Harder! Prop up another and repeat! This is great entertainment...
The whole world will see China as a shining success to model their governments after and us as has-beens relegated to the dustbin of history.
Your faith in communism is astounding. I'll grant you the U.S. will find the dustbin of history if the Republicans don't quit accelerating the growth of the welfare state, with nary a chinaman to blame.
So now the Chinese are imaginary? Their space program is imaginary?
The GNR was built without any use of imminent domain, without any political subsidies, and was profitable without any political bailouts.
Ok, I was confusing your description of Union Pacific with GNR. Where was GNR built? When was it built? How many miles of track were laid? What were the populations of the destinations? Are we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges?
Even so, private enterprise will not be matching the Chinese in space anytime soon. Private enterprise does not burn money for national security. The difference between us and the Chinese, between subsidy and communism you so love to distort is that at some point in our system, subsidy gives way to profit. When that happens, no government on earth, not even our own, can keep up. But private enterprise won't burn $50 billion for speculation, even when that speculation is pretty well grounded.
You need to spit up the hook, line and sinker if you think every instance of government waste is because of the democrats.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I simply gave concrete instances of democratic sabotage. I never said that waste only came from democrats.
I'll grant you the U.S. will find the dustbin of history if the Republicans don't quit accelerating the growth of the welfare state, with nary a chinaman to blame.
So the interstate system is an example of the welfare state? The republicans may be spending us into oblivion, but it ain't happening with the space program. Third grade math would tell you that if you bothered to look.
No, it's in about 1960 America-timescale. Their moonbase from which they are frightening you with dangers unknown is completely imaginary.
Ok, I was confusing your description of Union Pacific with GNR. Where was GNR built? When was it built? How many miles of track were laid? What were the populations of the destinations? Are we comparing apples to apples or apples to oranges?
The internet is a fantastic resource, use it and you can become less ignorant.
Even so, private enterprise will not be matching the Chinese in space anytime soon. Private enterprise does not burn money for national security.
Actually, considering the constellation of satellites, I'm willing to bet you any amount of money that private enterprise spends more than the Chinese.
The difference between us and the Chinese, between subsidy and communism you so love to distort is that at some point in our system, subsidy gives way to profit.
But private enterprise won't burn $50 billion for speculation, even when that speculation is pretty well grounded.
How many trillions in worth disappeared with 2000-2002 market downturn? People will invest in that which they hope to see a return on. You want government to engage in the waste of resources, instead of letting people put those resources to work building wealth, from which an ever greater pool of funding for more innovation, and capital for increasing productivity, is born.
So the interstate system is an example of the welfare state?
Just Eisenhower's admiration for Hitler's centrally planned, controlled, and implemented highway system applied to America. Your mistake is not being able to see opportunity cost. You think if we didn't have a highway system planned and created by the federal government, those resources wouldn't have found other applications that would bring rewards. You make the assumption that government bureaucrats really knew best what to do with those resources. You're a central planning statist at heart, hence your desire to emulate the Chinese communist's space program, and using the German National Socialist's highway program as evidence of government superior efficacy with resources.
The republicans may be spending us into oblivion, but it ain't happening with the space program.
Every dollar counts. Next year the Republican president and Republican Congress intend to spend ~477 BILLION dollars we don't have. You dream about making that stack higher.
In 1960, we had a long, long way to go to the moon because no one had ever done such a thing. And we did it in nine years (8.5 from the commitment to do so.) The Chinese stand a good chance of beating us back there.
The internet is a fantastic resource, use it and you can become less ignorant.
Ah, so you give me implicit permission to assume that it isn't an applicable example.
How many trillions in worth disappeared with 2000-2002 market downturn?
There is speculation and then there is speculation. The conventional wisdom for investing is sometimes wrong, but it is blatantly obvious to anyone with a clue that manned space is a long way from providing any kind of positive return.
Just Eisenhower's admiration for Hitler's centrally planned, controlled, and implemented highway system applied to America.
Yes, we should have gone with a network of locally funded dirt roads to avoid the taint of Hitler and central planning.
You're a central planning statist at heart,
Whose getting entertaining now? LP meeting run out of weed and make you cranky? Just remember, you went ad hominem first.
Next year the Republican president and Republican Congress intend to spend ~477 BILLION dollars we don't have. You dream about making that stack higher.
$477 billion dollars and you choose to vent your spleen over $200 million? I would be a Libertarian if you people could pick your battles with more intelligence than the average housefly beating its brain against a window.
Dropping two men in a tiny lander is a far cry from building a moon base. Staying requires lots of support. You know this, right?
Ah, so you give me implicit permission to assume that it isn't an applicable example.
No, I just explained you can find the answers to those questions and whatever others you might have about the GNR within seconds using Google. If you were two year old I would entertain these useless questions with more patience. I'm assuming you're an adult, and can correct your own ignorance without me holding your hand.
There is speculation and then there is speculation. The conventional wisdom for investing is sometimes wrong,
But markets can correct, and do so infinitely faster than government bureaucracies.
but it is blatantly obvious to anyone with a clue that manned space is a long way from providing any kind of positive return.
Hence, you admit it's a waste of resources.
Yes, we should have gone with a network of locally funded dirt roads to avoid the taint of Hitler and central planning.
So little imagination. Why am I not suprised?
Just remember, you went ad hominem first.
How is it an ad hominem? You've spent this entire thread extolling the virtues of state central planning for the U.S. economy.
$477 billion dollars and you choose to vent your spleen over $200 million?
$200 million dollars is REAL money, you jackass (that's an ad hominem!), and nowhere near what it would cost to establish a U.S. moon fort. That's money someone can save for their retirement, use for their own health insurance, or to buy their daughter a pair of shoes. It's not yours to fulfill fantasies of going to the moon to thwart chinamen who aren't there!
I would be a Libertarian if you people could pick your battles with more intelligence than the average housefly beating its brain against a window.
I'm not a Libertarian, but I'd be a card carrying Republican if they were honest about reducing government. If the last 3 years have demonstrated anything, it's that they'll spend other people's money and freely and happily as the Democrats. It's enough to make one crave divided government.
The Chinese have ratified the 1967 Outer Space Treaty, but they have neither ratified nor signed the 1979 Moon Treaty.
We need to withdraw from both.
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