Vietnam Veterans Against the War Statement by John Kerry

Ibiblio.org ^ | April 23, 1971 | John F. Kerry

[LaraCroft]

I wonder if part of the difference in the way Vietnam soldiers and Iraq soldiers were treated upon their return to America was due some instinctual knowledge of the things that happened there.

It is lunacy for a person to stand up and say "I raped, I tortured, therefore the soldiers in Iraq are wrong". These soldiers talking should be prosecuted and not listened to as foreign policy advisors.

[annyokie]

Important Kerry info here:


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1064724/posts

[Grut]

It is lunacy for a person to stand up and say "I raped, I tortured, therefore the soldiers in Iraq are wrong".

But it isn't lunacy to say "I raped, I tortured and the government hid the fact. How can you believe what they say now about another war?"

Mind you, the idea that the government's misbehaving in the present situation may well be wrong; but it isn't lunacy.

[Thor_Hammar]

John F. Kerry: "...over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia. These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

What should have been asked by the then (as opposed to the now) gutless members of the U.S. Senate: "Mr. Kerry, weren't you and officer in the U.S. Navy? Did you have personal knowledge of war crimes being committed? Did you report those war crimes as your training as an officer taught you was your duty to do? If not, why did you become an accessory-after-the-fact to the war crimes you apparently witnessed?"

What really bothers me is that Kerry has tried to make it sound as if war crimes of the sort he describes were the norm for U.S. forces in Vietnam. In fact, he has very little first-hand knowledge what happened outside the Swift Boat squadron to which he was assigned. My conclusion is that if Kerry has knowledge of any war crimes, his knowledge is limited to war crimes committed by members of his squadron and the forces they supported.

A few years ago one of the members of Kerry's crew, the gunner, stated he had wounded a Viet Cong who had aimed a rocket at Kerry's Swift Boat. When Kerry beached the boat in the midst of the group of Viet Cong, that wounded soldier fled behind a "hooch". Kerry pursued him and killed him. If that individual's story is accurate, Kerry committed the war crime of murder. So perhaps Kerry's testimony before Congress was to make him feel more comfortable about his own criminal activities.

By the way, officers in our armed forces can be recalled to active duty at any time during their lives. That normally happens only in a few cases: (1) the need for a senior commander such as Douglas MacArthur to return to command a major operation, (2) the need for an officer with special skills to be returned to active duty such as Admiral Grace Hopper, and (3) the need to court martial an officer for serious felonies he committed.

[Arpege92]

As I was reading through this post, I couldn't help but think about all of the horrors US soldiers experienced in World War II and Vietnam. Look at the way our US soldiers were treated when caught by the enemy. Look at the POW camps in Vietnam....where are the enemy soldiers of that time confessing to their sins and the pain they inflicted on another human being.

I think about the soldiers in World War II who were POW's. The death marches they experienced. The starvation and cruelty they endured by their captors. I remember watching a survivor of that war talking about the things that were done to them....Japanese soldiers walking up to an American POW and killing him with his bayonet for no reason at all. These soldiers were forced to watch their buddies die and not be able to say or do anything about it.

My point is that I excuse no one for the cruel behavior they may have inflicted on anyone....but I wonder how many of these enemy soldiers actually throw themselves on an altar and confess the evil things they were a part of. Not many, if any at all.

[sailor4321]

No, it reflects the difference in portrayal by the media. A few incidents in Vietnam were portrayed, for political purposes, as the "norm". The much more extensive incidents of WWII were virtually covered up by the media, resulting in a totally unrealistic view of how our soldiers behaved. I suspect the same is true of Iraq...

Still and all, our soldiers' behavior is far superior to that of the enemies we face (and some of our allies) --- so the "natives" are truly glad to see us....

[Criminal Number 18F]

we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated, veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia.

The vast majority of these were phonies: men who never served. A few were, contrary to Kerry's statement, dishonorably discharged deserters, like Chuck Onan. Only 24 soldiers deserted "to avoid combat with the enemy" in the entire Vietnam War (Stolen Valor, p. 63). At least two of them showed up in the Winter Soldier Investigation (Onan and Michael Schneider). Some of these guys were exposed at the time by war correspondent (and antiwar activist!) Neil Sheehan, writing in the antiwar, pro-VVAW New York Times.

Apart from Ketchup Man himself, none of the authentic Winter Soldier was highly decorated.

They weren't all deserters and nutcases. Some were actors recruited by Kerry and other VVAW leaders to play the parts of disgruntled veterans, in an early example of what we now call, "identity theft." This is documents in a Naval Investigative Service report which, ironically, is not public today to preserve the "privacy" of the phonies who postured before cameras, using others' names.

These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

Bullshit. Over ten years, 95 soldiers and 27 Marines were convicted of homicide for murdering Vietnamese noncombatants -- this doesn't really sound like they met with command approval.

It is impossible to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit - the emotions in the room and the feelings of the men who were reliving their experiences in Vietnam. They relived the absolute horror of what this country, in a sense, made them do.

It's a neat trick to relive someone else's experiences. It's actually very easy "to describe to you exactly what did happen in Detroit": a bunch of leftists and Communist sympathizers put on a sophisticated instance of "street theater." That's all.

They told stories that at times they had personally ...

Since they weren't personally there, they couldn't personally have done this junk.

...ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.

what threatens this country, not the reds, but the crimes which we are committing that threaten it,

Well, of course JFK Lite didn't think that the "reds" threaten the country. He was one of them, after all.

We found that not only was it a civil war, an effort by a people who had for years been seeking their liberation from any colonial influence whatsoever

This line is right out of period Communist propaganda.

We saw Vietnam ravaged equally by American bombs and search and destroy missions, as well as by Viet Cong terrorism - and yet we listened while this country tried to blame all of the havoc on the Viet Cong.

Classic moral equivalence. But, if the equivalence was true, then the net balance of postwar refugees would be zero -- as many would flee the capitalist as the communist terror. But, alas, history records that the flow of refugees, a handy barometer of the good or ill of nations, was all one way.

We fought using weapons against those people which I do not believe this country would dream of using were we fighting in the European theater. This implication that the American leaders is scurrilous and false. He also has to advance the myth that blacks suffered disproportionately -- that's pervasive in far-left Vietnam victimology. I'm sure we'll find it before we're done fisking this pack of lies.

Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese.

A bit incoherent here, but I will explain it to him what we were trying to Vietnamize was not the Vietnamese, but the combat operations of the war. Which was actually successful as long as the US-style army we built had US-style logistics and airpower.

We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?

This paragraph, like the preceding one, shows the labours of Kennedy family retainers, including a former RFK speechwriter, on Kerry's behalf. ....

I wonder what the deletion is that these ellipses signify. Want to bet it's something that Kerry has suppressed, in the same way that his shame and fear of exposure have caused him to suppress his VVAW book, The New Soldier?

... this war is not just a question of war and diplomacy. It is part and parcel of everything ... - the question of racism which is rampant in the military

I told you that was coming. Of course, as a naval officer, Kerry had lots of exposure to black sailors. They served him food, polished his shoes, and ironed his uniforms. Just like it was growing up. Or maybe he, like Ma Dean, "didn't even treat the servants like the servants."

.... the hypocrisy in our taking umbrage at the Geneva Conventions

Ah, actually, you illiterate putz, we took umbrage at enemy violations of the Conventions -- which your NVA pals never tired of pointing out to their prisoners, in torture sessions, that their nation never signed.

... we are more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions

This is an outright lie. But don't take my word for it. Professor (emeritus) R. J. Rummell of the University of Hawaii has done extensive research into the problem of state killings of civilians; his research is available to all here. You tell me (and JFK Lite) what Rummell says about Kerry's beloved Communist regimes (and no, Rummell doesn't whitewash American crimes -- where we killed civilians, he calls us on it).

in the use of free fire zones

This was the practice of clearing areas of civilians and then assuming anything that moved there to be enemy. This is arguable either way.

harassment interdiction fire

This is random artillery fire into enemy-held areas; it's basically just make-work for bored artillery units, and has not much military utility. It is not, however targeted against or a threat to innocents.

search and destroy missions

This ominous-sounding term had been changed to "cordon and search" years before Kerry went to Vietnam -- he was probably still wearing the kind of sailor suit his nanny (you knew he had a nanny right? I mean, you don't think his mother loved him, do you?) buttoned him into. Anyway, what you "searched" for was enemy soldiers and units, and the "destroy" came in if they did not surrender.

... the bombings...

Dirty secret of war: bombs cost money, and you only get so many. So there is a built-in incentive to drop them on the enemy. In fact, most of the bombs that were dropped in Southeast Asia were either dropped on well-documented troop bases

...the torture of prisoners...

I won't deny that the ARVNs tortured some of their prisoners. However, the NVA tortured all (except Kerry's pals, the collaborators) and executed quite a number.

...all accepted policy by many units in South Vietnam.

Now that's a pretty breathtaking logical fallacy. Take some stuff our guys were doing that was policy (and legal), some stuff that was harmless, some stuff the ARVNs did (after all, we have to take responsibility for our little yellow brothers who have no free will), and some stuff like My Lai that was done by criminals who were tried for it, and lump it all together.

An American Indian friend of mine who lives in the Indian Nation of Alcatraz

I think that this copy of the speech has been edited to remove some of the more extreme New Left stuff that didn't age very well, but JFK Lite's guardian angel missed this one. The "Indian Nation of Alcatraz" was a takeover of the abandoned prison by the armed, terrorist wing of the American Indian Movement, which were doctrinally violent and Communist, and close Kerry allies of the period. These are the same guys who murdered FBI agents and tribal policemen. Ultimately the news creeps got tired of the prison occupation and it petered out... only the truly whacky thought of those people as "freedom fighters," which puts Kerry firmly in the whacky column.

We wish that a merciful God could wipe away our own memories of that service

For a guy that wanted to forget about Vietnam, Kerry sure brings it up a lot. He might have been better off leaving it wiped away: his service was honorable, but what he did at VVAW meets the dictionary definition (and the Constitutional one) of treason.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[Uncle Miltie]

"And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom, which those misfits supposedly abuse, is to us the height of criminal hypocrisy, and it is that kind of hypocrisy which we feel has torn this country apart."

Tell that to the boat people. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands imprisoned in reeducation camps.

Tell that to the 2,000,000 dead Cambodians. Ooops! You can't. They're dead.

That's the Freedom of Kerry: No freedom can be lost to the left / communists, even if they kill you.

[Criminal Number 18F]

blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties

Ah, I knew that was in there somewhere. Missed it first time. This is completely untrue. Stolen Valor has a whole chapter on it, beginning on page 452. Let me nick some statistics from Burkett and Whitley:

• During the ten years of the war, 7,257 black Americans died in Vietnam. That's 12.5% of the KIAs; during that period 10.5% of the American population was black, and 13.5% of the population of draft-age males.

• In 1965, peak year for black representation of casualties, 16% of the KIAs were black, but almost all of them were volunteers with the Marines, Airborne units, or Special Forces -- all elite, all-volunteer outfits made up predominantly of career soldiers. In other years, blacks were more underrepresented among the casualties, to produce the averages cited above.

• 75% of black soldiers in Vietnam were volunteers for Vietnam.

• Blacks volunteered for combat at higher rates than whites.

• Far from being helpless cannon fodder, black soldiers were frequently decorated for extreme acts of voluntary heroism. 20 Medals of Honor (insane bravery in the face of near-certain death) and almost 100 DSC's (insane bravery with a slight chance of survival) went to black American soldiers. No one has even counted the Silver Stars and valourour Bronze Stars -- there are just too many.

• Maj. Fred Cherry is one such hero. Captured and asked to make propaganda broadcasts to his "black brothers" for the NVA, Cherry accepted torture (three times a day, routinely!) instead.

• Unlike black volunteers for elite units, black draftees had a significantly lower risk of winding up in combat assignments.

• "It was in the military that blacks were able to show their equality long before other areas opened up." - Colin Powell.

Ever hear of the propaganda technique of the Big Lie? You simply repeat a lie over and over again, make it more pervasive all the time, until it finally drives out the truth in a propagandistic analogue of Gresham's law. That's what the left have done with the myth of black victimization in the military. That's what Kerry embraces and extends here. And it's not only hogwash, it's an insult to every black combat veteran like Fred Cherry, every non-black combat veteran like me, every black citizen who is told his race was maltreated by his country, and every citizen, period.

The people who suffer the worst are probably the kids who get fed this victim drivel in school. Do you think the schools tell 'em about Fred Cherry? Don't you think they should?

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[sailor4321]

Well said, 18F!

[Tailgunner Joe]

bttt

[secretagent]

The vast majority of these were phonies: men who never served. A few were, contrary to Kerry's statement, dishonorably discharged deserters, like Chuck Onan. Only 24 soldiers deserted "to avoid combat with the enemy" in the entire Vietnam War (Stolen Valor, p. 63). At least two of them showed up in the Winter Soldier Investigation (Onan and Michael Schneider). Some of these guys were exposed at the time by war correspondent (and antiwar activist!) Neil Sheehan, writing in the antiwar, pro-VVAW New York Times.

Looking for a source that Onan and Schneider testified at the WSI. I find it hard to believe that two deserters would risk a public appearance in Detroit.

Sheehan debunked Mark Lane's book "Conversations with American's, not the WSI. Please correct if I have that wrong.

[secretagent]

They weren't all deserters and nutcases. Some were actors recruited by Kerry and other VVAW leaders to play the parts of disgruntled veterans, in an early example of what we now call, "identity theft." This is documents in a Naval Investigative Service report which, ironically, is not public today to preserve the "privacy" of the phonies who postured before cameras, using others' names.

Or to put it more uncharitably: "uh huh, right, sure". If we can't find this NIS document, then we shouldn't cite it.

[Criminal Number 18F]

You're right, Sheehan beat up Lane's book in a 27 December 1970 review. I mistook citations of that on pp. 131-133 of Stolen Valor for part of the discussion of VVAW/WSI that begins on p. 133. I don't have a comprehensive list of participants, but I have no evidence Onan or Schneider was there. Schneider wwas probably in military or civil prison, where he's been almost continuously since 1971. Schneider is presently in a loony bin, or the "happy home," as Napoleon XIV would have called it, in OK for murder.

The NIS investigation appears to have only looked into Marines. See Stolen Valor p. 133, bottom third. Apparently Sen. Mark Hatfield asked the Commandant of the Marine Corps to look into the Marine "atrocities" Kerry's phonies claimed. The VVAW leadership - that would be Kerry -- ordered the rank and file not to cooperate. SV in turn cites Gunter Lewy's America in Vietnam for the NIS story. Supposedly it's on p. 317 of that book. A direct quote from Lewy (SV p. 134, top): "But the most damaging finding consisted of the sworn statements of several veterans, corroborated by witnesses, that they had in fact not attended the hearing in Detroit. One of them had never been to Detroit in his life."

And further down SV p. 134, another Lewy quote: "The VVAW's use of fake witnesses...."

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[secretagent]

Thanks. I really need to get a copy of 'Stolen Valor'..

I don't have it handy, but I've read a couple of times that Lewy read the NIS investigation but now can't locate it. I got the idea of a clerical error, and the Navy wants to find it but can't. You've heard different - a privacy dodge.

As far as I know from just clicking on the Web, the witnesses in the WSI itself stand untouched.

Doesn't seem likely, but I don't know how to rebut those that say "prove it".

[Criminal Number 18F]

Stolen Valor cites "America in Vietnam" P. 317 on the NIS report. Gunther Lewy is AFAIK still alive and a prof emeritus with an office somewhere. His Am in Vn is still in print.

Paul Hollander in Amherst, MA has written widely on the Left and may be helpful in tracking some of this down, although as far as I know he has no interest in busting wannabees.

Known WSI participants who have been exposed as phonies include Al Hubbard, executive secretary of VVAW, who wrote the fore-matter to the VVAW's book on the hearings, which was called "The WInter Soldier Investigation" (Like "The New Soldier," it is rare today because Kerry's agents have been buying it up. Hubbard never served in Vietnam (he claimed to have been a bomber pilot, he was an enlisted man with a poor record). Michael Harbert is another that claimed to be a combat aviator and wasn't. Don Pugsley claimed to be a combat vet with Det. B-52. He was briefly assigned there but after NON-combat injuries in training, never served even a day in combat... if you look at his "testimony" it's all bar talk from other SF guys.

As far as the NIS report is concerned, it would also be possible to reproduce much of the NIS's results. The average Vietnam vet is in his early sixties and still with us. All we have to do is track the vets down. (By the way, Lewy really slams the command in a few places in his book, he is not some apologist for Westy et al).

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[secretagent]

Thanks for the leads.

A new FR affiliated website devoted to the WSI has launched. Announcement thread here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1083607/posts

[secretagent]

Thanks again for the leads. I found Don Pugsley at an "improved" WSI online:

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/sixties/HTML_docs/Resources/Primary/Winter_Soldier/WS_28_Misc.html

So that establishes his witness status. Check!

Is the Pugsley debunking in "Stolen Valor"?

Thanks!

[Criminal Number 18F]

Is the Pugsley debunking in "Stolen Valor"?

No, it is not. I don't have a link to point you to, but the source was multiple veterans of Project Delta, aka Detachment B-52, 5th Special Forces Group. In fact, you will have a hard time finding anyone who remembers him at all. If you ask enough you will find

One think you can do is look in B-52's section of Steve Sherman's "Works in Progress." Start at The Main Page and go to Works In Progress... then thrash around a bit. You will find the Delta rosters but he is not there. Like I said, my sources said he did serve there briefly but was injured and went to Japan for treatment and never came back. Injury in a helicopter crash for mechanical reasons, during pre-combat training, and he saw zero combat. B-52 was assigned to "E Company Special Projects" and did mostly in country denied-area recon. Sorry to hit you with so much "trust me," but you should be able to establish everything I did.

After WSI Pugsley became a small-time actor and screenwriter, and also wound up going back in the Guard Special Forces. He told them combat stories (!) but nothing about his stint as a hippie protester. He is now retired. He may have worn uniform appurtenances to which he is not entitled -- waiting for St Louis on that one. We could probably destroy his reputation but he already works in Hollywood -- what reputation?

In fact, if you really, really want to investigate WSI and VVAW, you would be well advised to FOIA the record of each of the characters that "testified." Then track down the individuals.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F