The Agenda of Islam - A War Between Civilizations

betar ^ | Wednesday 24th Dec 2003 | Professor Moshe Sharon

[SauronOfMordor]

Funny that you should offer up communism, a war that we won without having to frontally engage an enemy, but was defeated by the power of ideas.

Korea. Vietnam. Proxy wars in Afghanistan and Nicaragua. The list goes on.

The war against the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ended when we forced them to spend so much money on armaments that their economy finally collapsed.

The only "idea" factor that created victory, is that a market economy is much more productive than a command economy. They could not keep up.

The war against radical Islam will be won when we collapse the economies of Saudi and the rest to the point where they can no longer fund actions against us

[marron]

When I was in the kingdom I read one of their books expounding the "fact" that the Bible was forged. I've got a pretty open mind and would willingly entertain anything that was rational and grounded in fact.

Needless to say the book was irrational and not grounded in fact and it wouldn't take a genius to pick it apart. They simply asserted that it was a forgery, essentially based on the fact that it disagreed with Mohammed. No effort to discuss early textual issues, nothing like that.

And they relied on some other writings that were themselves pretty obviously bogus.

I have to say I lost all respect for Islam after that. I made it a point to read the Koran, and made an effort to understand the issues from their point of view. But this book was so intellectually dishonest that you couldn't take it seriously, and the claims it makes are regularly parroted by Muslims, who have never tried to get to the truth themselves. How can they? You can't get a Bible if it isn't smuggled in.

I then re-read the Bible, it was interesting to go back through it in those circumstances. One thing, if you manage to get a Bible in the Kingdom, you never take it home, you give it to someone before you leave. You can get another one, they can't. Its a valuable possession.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"Korea. Vietnam. Proxy wars in Afghanistan and Nicaragua."

These were all proxy wars, all despots using communism as a tool to further their intentions.

Islam is a faith, unless you win the ideological battle, the war will never end.

[SauronOfMordor]

Do you write speeches for Wesley Clark?

In the absence of a reasoned response, you resort to "Your mother wears Army boots"?

[Luis Gonzalez]

You're so blind you couldn't see the inconsistency in your own post. How could you find inconsistencies in other things.

[A. Pole]

But for Islam, the establishment of the state of Israel was a reverse of Islamic history. First, Islamic territory was taken away from Islam by Jews. You know by now that this can never be accepted, not even one meter. So everyone who thinks Tel Aviv is safe is making a grave mistake. Territory, which at one time was dominated by Islamic rule, now has become non-Moslem. Non-Moslems are independent of Islamic rule; Jews have created their own independent state. It is anathema.

That is why brave Chechen "freedom" fighters talked (in breaks between conquering hospitals and hunting for slaves in neighboring territories) about "liberation of whole Russia". That is why Muslims also must "liberate" Serbia, Greece, Bulgaria, Armenia, Georgia, Spain and India.

[P.O.E.]

nor would children's indoctrination in Nazi ideology be tolerated

IMHO, this is the key in the long run. On the positive side, such things as opening up schools in Afghanistan, e.g., is a step in the right direction. What I don't see are efforts to shut down hate-preachers & their mosques en masse. I realize it's a delicate balance regarding free speech, but I don't think we even have the personnel available and working (such as translators or moles) to be listening in to see who's who & what's what. Or do we?

[SauronOfMordor]

unless you win the ideological battle, the war will never end

As Jerry Pournelle puts it: "Ideology counts. But it does its counting with a sword".

Military victory gives the ideological adherents the sense that they are on the correct side. Humiliating and complete defeat makes them question ideological infallibility

[dennisw]

Any territory in the world is fair game for Islamic conquest but this is viewed as a long term project. Islam also vows to never let go of territory that was once under Muslim rule. Thus they want Spain back and want Israeli land back too.

Primary Concepts:
Dar al-Islam, Dar al-Harb

Islamic religious tradition has symbolically divided the world between those places where Islam is dominant, and where aspects of Islamic religious law are supposed to be in effect, and where it is not. These terms held particular significance during the times of the Prophet Muhammad and the rise of the Islamic empire.

Dar al-Islam (“house of Islam”) signifies a geographic location controlled by Muslims where Islamic law is in effect.

Dar al-Harb (“house of war”) is a location where Muslims are not in control and Muslim law is not in effect. Dar al-Harb can also refer to a human’s inner struggle to accept the will of God.

[A. Pole]

Israel finds itself on the front lines of this war. It needs the help of its sister civilization. It needs the help of America and Europe. It needs the help of the Christian world.

Which "Christian world"? The same one which is gaving help to Muslims against Serbs and cheered Islamists in Chechnya? And where was the Israel when Serbs where under attack?

[Luis Gonzalez]

Military victory against whom exactly?

Convince me of the veridity of your claim by painting a scenario whereby there would be no more Christians in this world as a result of a military victory.

Your claim fails to consider one of the most basic facts about extreme religious fervor: it views death in the hands of an enemy to the faith, as an ultimate victory.

That's constant in Islam as well as Christianity.

[swarthyguy]

Bloody borders bump.

Perhaps our strategy will be successful and America will convert the world of islam into a peace loving paragon of modernity.

But, I wouldn't bet on it.

The Arab world is the worst and most backwards, next to the Jihadi cesspool of Pakistan. But Pakistan may change, due to GEOTV, showing Indian programs and prompting a lot of wistful nostalgia for the common entertainment cultures of the two countries and Musharraf's recent come to the light moment(s).

[SauronOfMordor]

Military victory against whom exactly?

The current expounders of Islamism and Islamic terrorism, mostly Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iran. Iran is on the edge of overthrowing the mullahs, so I would wait and give some discrete aid to the rebels. Syria and Saudi would not last 48 hours against the forces currently positioned in Iraq. India would take out Pakistan quickly if we ever gave them the green light.

A few more 9/11-type incidents, or even one super-9/11, and it would not be hard to get the American people behind doing a Carthage on the Muslim world. And the US military could take out the combined militaries of the entire remainder of the billion-person Muslim world in 72 hours

[SauronOfMordor]

These were all proxy wars, all despots using communism as a tool to further their intentions.

And the Islamic world is composed of despots using Islamism as a tool to further their intentions.

Perhaps the solution would be to surgically take out the despots and the mullahs they use to promote their Islamist ideology. Make it clear that promoting, financing, or preaching radical Islam puts you on the hit list

[risk]

A) consider the exercise of an individual's First Amendment rights to be treason, and B) you believe that I should not get so uppity as to forget "my place", and attempt to rise above my station in relation to real Americans.

Ganelon, there's a difference between what you're doing and what the Rosenbergs did. You're not giving secrets to our enemies or sabotaging our physical defenses. What you are doing is downplaying the threat that Islam and pan-Arab nationalism represent to our national integrity.

In 778, Charlemagne had to leave behind a small group of troops to defend a pass in the Pyreneese mountains. He instructed neighboring allies to come to their rescue if the Moors were to attack.

Attack they did, and Roland blew his horn calling out for help.

Ganelon cried that Roland was merely hunting, when actually he was summoning forces to defend against the 400,000 attacking Moores at Roncesvalles. Because Ganelon purposefully mischaracterized his comrades' alarm, Spain fell. The story is best told here.

Ganelon, can you read this? Please translate it for us:

Aquí clamó a sus escuderos Carlos el enperante;
"Sacat al arçobispo desta mortaldade!
Levemos le a su terra a Flanderes la ciudade."
El enperador andava catando por la mortaldade;
vido en la plaça Oliveros o yace,
el escudo crebantado por medio del braçale;
non vió sano en eyll quanto un dinero vale;
Tornado yaze a orient, como lo puso Roldane.

* * * * *

Con vuestro esfuerço ariba entramos en Espayna.
matastes los moros e las te ras ganastes largas,
adobé los caminos del apóstol Santiago,
non conquis a Çaragoça, ont me ferió tal lançada.

­Con tal duelo estó, sobrino, agora non fues bivo!
Agora ploguies al Criador, a mi seynnor Jhesu-Xristo
que finase en este logar, que me levase contigo.
D' aquestos muertos que aquí tengo conmigo
dizir me ías las nuevas, cada uno cómo fizo.
El rey quando est dixo, cayó esmortecido. 

Another singing of the story is Song of Roland with a set of verses about Ganelon.

I've heard that in the Pyreneese mountains, they sometimes still hear a lonely horn blowing in the night. Luis, the horn is blowing. You're telling us not to listen to it. Wake up, Ganelon. History will not be kind to you.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"And the Islamic world is composed of despots using Islamism as a tool to further their intentions."

That's like saying that because of the actions of Castro, Chavez, and the Shining Path guerrillas, the Hispanic world is composed of despots. You can't simply generalize that broadly and remain focused on the true enemy, which is this version of Islam that emerged less than a century ago.

Most of the "Islamic world" lies outside of the Middle East, as a matter of fact, the overwhelming majority of it lies outside of the Middle East, it serves no purpose whatsoever to paint them with such a broad stroke, and turn hundreds of millions of people who have absolutely no beef with us, into the enemy.

My "agenda", if indeed I have an agenda, is to maintain everyone's eyes focused on the enemy...Muslim extremism, Wahabbi directives, Saudi funding, and ignorance, all of which can be fought in one small area of the world--the Middle East--without actually engaging the non-combatants that comprise 90% of Islam.

[Luis Gonzalez]

There's perfect proof of my arguments, while nearly 80% of the world's Muslims are NOT Arabs, every group you've depicted are either Arabs, or Persians.

Even in the midst of your cutesy cut and paste games, your asinine name calling, and in spite of your best efforts to keep people as ignorant of the facts as do extremist Muslims clerics, the truth surfaced.

[Luis Gonzalez]

"The current expounders of Islamism and Islamic terrorism, mostly Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Iran."

BINGO!

The majority (nearly 80%) of the world's Muslims live outside those areas.

"And the US military could take out the combined militaries of the entire remainder of the billion-person Muslim world in 72 hours."

So, you're ready to attack China and Indonesia?

[Luis Gonzalez]

There are an estimated 1.2 billion Muslims in the world. The Organization of Islamic Countries has 55 member states. The ten countries with the largest Muslim population are: Indonesia (170.3 million), Pakistan (136 million), Bangladesh (106 million), India (103 million), Turkey (62.4 million), Iran (60.7 million), Egypt (53.7 million), Nigeria (47.7 million), and China (37.1 million). Of these countries only Egypt is an Arab country. Most Arabs are Muslims, but most Muslims are not Arabs.

[A. Pole]

Most Arabs are Muslims, but most Muslims are not Arabs.

And very important to remember; most of American Arabs are Christians - many of them the descendents of the first Christians.