U.S. Troops To Pull Out Of Seoul

The Wsahington Post ^ | January 18, 2004 | NA

[Judith Anne]

When my son served in the 2nd Division in Korea, his family was not allowed to be there. They visited, but couldn't live there.

[damian85]

Here's another hint I couldn't resist sharing. Get a map and follow the roads north. How many bridges are there that cross the Im Jin on the northern most part of the river? How many roads are there after the bridge? What does the terrain look like around these roads?

make your own conclusions..............

[damian85]

Was your son an officer? Example: My battalion commanders wife lived at Camp Casey with him. Thats a whole lot closer than Seoul. Most military families in Korea are in Seoul at Yongsan. This post has a high school and hospital and is really a little America.

[Judith Anne]

Noncom. Maybe that was the reason.

[BykrBayb]

When my son served in the 2nd Division in Korea, his family was not allowed to be there. They visited, but couldn't live there.

Was that in Seoul? When my husband was stationed in Korea at the DMZ, that was an unaccompanied tour, as it was designated hazardous duty. I've been told Seoul is an accompanied tour, non-hazardous duty. I've also been told that it should be designated hazardous duty, due to it's proximity to the DMZ. When my husband was there (before we were married), some of the other soldiers' spouses did live in a nearby village, on the local economy.

[Happy2BMe]

45 miles south should be just a staging area to get the hell out of S. Korea permanently.

That $11 billion sure would be nice to spend on roads back here in the United States.

"CAMP CASEY, South Korea, November 21 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - A second U.S. soldier stood trial Thursday, November 21, over the deaths of two South Korean school girls crushed by a military vehicle as anti-American activists and politicians expressed outrage over a U.S. acquittal of the first soldier.

“We demand the withdrawal of U.S. troops, who are murderers!”, the protesters shouted."

A protester holds a sign condemning the United States Forces Korea (USFK)

Bring The Legions Home - PULLOUT of South Korea NOW!

[Uncle Meat]

I was stationed at Camp Casey Korea for a year in the First Battalion Fifteenth Field Artillery Regiment.

I was in 8/8thFA in Camp Stanley in 90-'92.Did a month in 4P3 and we were actually the last U.S. artillery unit to man that post before it was turned over to the ROK's.That was as close to North Korea I would ever want to be.We had the M109A2's then.I don't think the Pallidans were there yet.

[CholeraJoe]

Say it ain't so. They're closing the Won-two-Won? The 121st Hospital in Seoul had been in operation since 1951. Many wounded from the 4077th MASH were sent there.

[Judith Anne]

He was at the DMZ, and more than that I don't know, since he said that if he told me he'd have to kill me...

[ASA Vet]

Here's a better map.

[Capt. Tom]

I was in the 34th Infantry Regiment on the DMZ from November 1955 thru February 1957. (Two Christmases - darn)

Tours of duty then were 16 months. -Tom

[neverdem]

LOL

[neverdem]

http://www.sinodefence.com/army/artillery/tubeartillery/towed_152.asp

Bykr, I made a basic error when using the scale on the map in comment# 16. Seoul, from the closest city limits as drawn on that map, is slightly more than 22 miles from the DMZ. I wouldn't be surprised if greater Seoul suffered from urban sprawl. If you use the link in this comment to look at the guns, be advised that when they use the term " calibre" it refers to the ratio of the guns' length to the internal bore diameter.

Damian, if you look at this comment's link you'll can look at Chicom 152 mm gun and 155 mm gun/howitzers with maximium extended ranges of 38 and 39 kilometers, respevtively, IIRC. 39 clicks is 24.219 miles, using 1 click = 0.621 miles. The masking of intervening mountains usually isn't a problem when firing at 45 degrees elevation for maximum range. I used to work FDC too. I don't know for sure what the North Koreans have for artillery.

[BykrBayb]

In comment# 16 I thought you meant 15 miles to the northern edge of Seoul proper. Either way, it's closer than I thought, and closer than we should be sending family members. Unless, of course, Korean bullets don't kill. Judging from the lack of awards recieved for a tour on the DMZ, I have to assume all our dead and wounded soldiers were just clumsy oafs. Because we all know there's no combat there. </sarcasm>

[damian85]

if you look at the map you have and see the different elevations you'll see that your min QE would automatically put a gun at high angel. i don't have to tell you that high angel ruins range unless using higher charges but even with higher charges your range will still suffer. also the north Korean artillery is more than 1000 meters from the fence line at the DMZ. also the type of gun the NK's use isn't the greatest for accuracy......let me also inform you that what you find on the Internet isn't necessarily true. there is a difference between what's true and what the government says is true. the truth of the matter that i can tell you is that Seoul is not within range of NK artillery. some US camps up north are within range but like camp Casey they are situated directly behind mountains. so lets go through a scenario real quick. the north koreans get a wild hair and decide they're going to come down the slot and capture Seoul. the standard battle tactic for all military of the world is to soften a target with a sustained bombardment. the targets would be all ROK and US motor-pools, right? well with US posts being protected by mountains, I know Casey is, the main artillery assets up north would be untouched. Now what happens on the US side? Q-38 and 36 counter-fire radars along the DMZ would pick up and triangulate any object with the size and velocity of an artillery round that breaks the plane of 10 to 20 feet above sea level. within 30 to 45 minutes each NK tube would be knocked out. why? because thats what the main objective for training in US artillery in Korea is. as NK artillery is accurate within 50 meters, US artillery is...well...read my Tagline. we also have to remember the deep-strike assets located at camp Stanley. alot to think about. there are alot of things that can't be said about the issues you are talking about. so I'm going to stop before it can all be pieced together and become a valuable peice of intelligence. the basic point i was trying to make is that NK guns can't reach Seoul. reason being intervening crests, accuracy not having the equipment to combat the two. you also have to remember that they would have to mass fire and as soon as that happened the US and NK rounds would be passing each other in the air. My money is on the US red-leg.

[neverdem]

http://www.rheinmetall-detec.de/index.php?lang=3&fid=913

Rheinmetall is a well recognized name with a reputation to maintain. In the 6th paragraph they start describing 155 mm guns with ranges up to 40 km using advanced projectiles. Google "155mm+artillery" and you'll find multiple sites claiming similar ranges. One site described a 5" naval gun claiming a range of 63 nautical miles, IIRC. Maybe it was 63 km, or they made a mistake and put miles instead of km.

I had a hard enough time finding the map in comment# 16. If you could show me a more detailed topograhic map, I would appreciate it. It appears that the northwest portion of Seoul would be vulnerable to guns firing for maximum range from the area south of Pabang-dong at the western end of the DMZ, if the North Koreans have guns/howitzers with a 40 km range. I believe the South Africans have a gun or howitzer with a range up to 40 km that was designed by Gerald Bull, the guy who was buiding that super gun for Saddam before the first war with Iraq. How long ago did you serve in the Army?

[neverdem]

How are you doing? If you have the time, I would appreciate your input about whether portions of Seoul are within the range of cannons from North Korea, i.e. 40 km.

[archy]

Don't just think tubes. Don't forget the North Korean 122mm, Grad and Smerch MLRS missile systems.

The 300 mm 9K58 rockets used in the Russian *Smerch* MLRs rockets have a range of 70KM, certainly enough to reach Seoul from the DMZ. And the range of available warheads includes the Russian version of DPICM, as well as other possibilities that should really receive some consideration:

It has been reported that a miniature aerial vehicle, R-90, containing a stabilised camera is being developed which could be fired from the Smerch launcher, enabling realtime battlefield surveillance data to be relayed to the Smerch commander. The aerial vehicle, which uses GPS (Global Positioning System), has the same 70 km range as the 9M55K rocket and can transmit data for up to 30 minutes. n

[archy]

Rheinmetall is a well recognized name with a reputation to maintain. In the 6th paragraph they start describing 155 mm guns with ranges up to 40 km using advanced projectiles. Google "155mm+artillery" and you'll find multiple sites claiming similar ranges. One site described a 5" naval gun claiming a range of 63 nautical miles, IIRC. Maybe it was 63 km, or they made a mistake and put miles instead of km.

A bit over 45 KM has been achieved with the South African G5 and Space Research Corporation base-bleed long-range projectiles, as one unfortunate civilian family enjoying a summer picnic on the edge of a South African impact area near the SA artillery center at Potchefstroom discovered the hard way. I wouldn't count on a 50 KM range with a 45-calibre G5 gun unless all the factors, including favourable winds were just right, but it's just possible. And very hard on Volkswagen Combi camper vans.

I think it's less likely with the most common Soviet pattern 152mm artilery in the DPRK arsenal, but improved ammunition and long-tube replacement barrels have been developed for those weapons as well, and field-proven in Chechnya. I wouldn't think they'd be the greatest threat- see my comments on Russian MLRS systems in the previous post- but whether able to hit Seoul from their present near-DMZ positions or after moving forward online, there'd certainly be thousands of them keeping the US Warthawgs very busy.

Don't forget the North Korean *Kok-san* M1989 170mm SP guns either- they've got a range of over 60 miles with a rocket-assist projectile, as used by the Iranians, firing on Kuwait during the Iran-Iraq war. The DPRK is believed to have in excess of 500 M1989 170mm guns, used in 36-gun batteries, within range of Seoul.

[archy]

How are you doing? If you have the time, I would appreciate your input about whether portions of Seoul are within the range of cannons from North Korea, i.e. 40 km.

Per previous two posts, oh yes. Thousands of them, most likely.