Immigration fixes real and imagined: Nice carrot, Mr President, where's the stick?

FRN Column | January 16, 2004 | Patrick McGuinness

[WOSG]

Here is my take on the immigration situation. Dont be misled by those who say there "is no solution" or "we dont have the answers". We do. We have a lot of ideas and answers, it's just a matter of having the courage to do them.

[MEG33]

I agree with you.I will vote for Bush because I certainly don't think anyone else will implement these suggestions sooner.

He did create a discussion and that is a good thing.Perhaps some good will come out of the firestorm.

I do believe one thing that keeps us from helping solve the illegal immigration is that real bugaboo,a hard to duplicate national ID card.

[supercat]

The Bush guest worker proposal however doesnt address causes of illegal immigration and our failure at many levels to stop it.

Ah, but it does. One of the major causes of illegal immigration, and the major political obstacle to stopping it, is the demand for illegal immigrant labor. Although it may not sound like it, Bush's proposal does deal with this, albeit in a rather sneaky way.

In a few placed, illegal immigrant labor might be competitive with the labor of citizens and permanent legal residents if it had to be performed on the same terms, but in most cases it probably isn't. The only reason illegal immigrants have a competitive advantage is that employers can rely upon them not to squeal about violations of labor laws. It is that inability to squeal that sets illegals apart from everyone else.

So what does Bush's proposal do? It subdivides the present group of "undocumented workers" into two subgroups: (1) those whose employer will go on record as hiring them; (2) those with no willing employer of record. People who take the first path won't have a competitive advantage over citizens and permanent legal residents, so there won't be much demand for their labor. And people in the second group may be regarded as freeloaders and deported as such, since they're unwilling to provide any evidence that they actually work.

[Dane]

This is actually a good article, with sound reasonable proposals and nil on the hyperbole.

Bush didn't use an executive order as Clinton would have and the debate is now in Congress's lap.

[gubamyster]

ping

[joesnuffy]

Where's the stick?
After the first 12 million illegals get here and bring
their brothers cousins nephews uncles aunts and
start cranking out little ones....
You'll find out where the stick is....

[MEG33]

I agree we need a stick.I remember when this study on immigration came out and I thought it had good ideas.

[WOSG]

*** IMMIGRATION DEBATE PING ***

[WOSG]

"This is actually a good article, with sound reasonable proposals and nil on the hyperbole."

Thanks. I wouldnt write it any other way. :-)

What's got me is this: With so many sound conservative proposals out there that Bush could just pick and run with, why did he chose not to, for example, tout a solution on documentation verification or endorse the CLEAR Act?

A balanced, comprehensive approach is both better policy and better politics.

[FITZ]

If Bush would announce that the illegals who seek government handouts will all be deported --- especially address the anchor baby welfare problem, all those failing to pay their hospital bills will be deported, and all government freebies will be cut off, all jobs would have to first have recruiters going into disadvantaged American neighbhorhoods to really offer the job to unemployed Americans before recruiting in Mexico some of us would feel differently.

[WOSG]

"And people in the second group may be regarded as freeloaders and deported as such, since they're unwilling to provide any evidence that they actually work."

As my article points out, there is nothing in Bush's proposal to suggest that illegal aliens would be deported at any greater rate than currently. Hence, that part of your scenario falls flat. Without enforcement, both the demand and the supply of illegal aliens workers will continue, and the problem will remain uncorrected.

[WOSG]

Immigration ping

[Syncro]

"...where's the stick?"

Follow the string from the carrot...LOL

[supercat]

As my article points out, there is nothing in Bush's proposal to suggest that illegal aliens would be deported at any greater rate than currently. Hence, that part of your scenario falls flat. Without enforcement, both the demand and the supply of illegal aliens workers will continue, and the problem will remain uncorrected.

Neither of us can really know what Bush has up his sleeve. But if I were planning increased enforcement, I'd keep quiet about that while putting this current proposal in place. Therefore, the fact that Bush is keeping mum about it doesn't concern me. To be sure, it's quite possible--perhaps likely--that Bush isn't planning any particular enforcement, but I see no particular evidence one way or the other.

[WOSG]

"Neither of us can really know what Bush has up his sleeve. But if I were planning increased enforcement, I'd keep quiet about that while putting this current proposal in place."

Nonsense, there are bills IN THE CURRENT CONGRESS that will likely die in Committee but which WOULD PASS if Bush put his weight behind them. Bills like the CLEAR Act. These bills are popular with the public and common-sense solutions.

What Bush has 'up his sleeve' is what he proposed.The polls show that Bush's proposal went over like a lead balloon. Had Bush mentioned these enforcement provisions and ideas instead of or in addition to his own proposals, those polls would be better... He needs to add in conservative ideas to fix his politics and his policies.

This thread has this factiod:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1058591/posts
"According to a RoperASW poll from last year, 83 percent of Americans support mandatory detention and forfeiture of property for illegal immigrants, followed by deportation."
So Bush *could* have crafted a Conservative enforcement component to the proposal in addition to his guest worker provision, and IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WILDLY POPULAR!
Why oh why didnt he do it??!?


"To be sure, it's quite possible--perhaps likely--that Bush isn't planning any particular enforcement, but I see no particular evidence one way or the other."

It is 100% certain that Bush is not planning enforcement improvment, or his proposal would have included it. His lack of specific public support for the bills that are already out there proposed by others is evidence he is doesnt know or doesnt care about those solutions.
Thinking otherwise is wishful thinking.

[WOSG]

Lets talk about the CLEAR Act.

"The legislation would dramatically stiffen fines for illegal entries and add new provisions allowing the forfeiture of assets of noncitizens who fail to depart the U.S. pursuant to an order of removal and then remain in the U.S. for longer than one year. The current penalties for illegal entry violations under INA sec. 275(b) range from $50 to $250. The top end of that range would be increased to $500 and would reach $10,000 if the individual had three prior violations."

The legislation would authorize a billion dollars each fiscal year for immigration enforcement. State and local police departments would be able to apply for funds for technology, equipment, and administrative support for housing and processing noncitizens held for immigration violations. Only those agencies that instituted a policy and practice of enforcing immigration laws would be eligible for funds. A third of the money raised from the fees that immigrants pay in applying for benefits would be diverted to enforcement efforts. In addition, the legislation would authorize the attorney general or the secretary of the DHS to increase fees for immigration benefits in order to carry out immigration enforcement."

What the sponsor says about it:

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/ga09_norwood/CLEARActHearingAdvisory.html
“Sadly, there are some 400,000 aliens with standing deportation orders and 80,000 criminal aliens that our broken immigration system has released back out onto the streets – these folks are living within our borders and simply cannot be found,” added Norwood. “The hearing next week is a big step forward for the CLEAR Act, but more importantly, a step in the right direction towards finally giving some much needed assistance to the 2,000 out-manned folks in the field, getting the 80,000 criminal aliens off our streets, and ensuring the safety of our nation’s legal and peaceful citizens.”

http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/clearact.html
Miguel Angelo Gordoba is a child molester and illegally in our country. "In August 2001, he finished a four-year sentence at Rivers State Prison for molesting a 2-year old girl in Alma, Georgia. On the day he finished his sentence you would think he would be picked up and deported. As unbelievable as it sounds, the INS, now the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, didn't have his paperwork done. Subsequently, Mr. Gordoba registered as a sex offender, but when the county sheriff went to the listed address to check in on him, all he found was a vacant lot. Mr. Gordoba is one of 80,000 criminal aliens with standing deportation orders that are on the loose within our borders."


http://www.actionla.org/ISN/

The Immigrant Solidarity Network gathers from leading Immigrant Rights sources such as the ACLU, MALDEF, NIF, AILA, CAIR, MPAC, SEIU, AFSC
This Amnesty Crowd hates the bill.


http://www.now.org/issues/violence/112103clearact.html
NOW hates the CLEAR Act. NOW got a provision in VAWA II, an evil bill that has now destroyed the lives of men scammed by false allegations from alien women marrying/using men to get green cards then dumping them with false allegations of abuse. ...NOW says: "VAWA 2000's self-petitioning provision allows victims abused by a spouse who is a citizen or lawful permanent resident to obtain legal immigration status." ... in plain English - NOW got an AMNESTY that is on the books today for illegal aliens. So NOW hates this bill because it will crimp the style of the latest amnesty scam - (puke!).

http://www.amuslimvoice.org/html/clear_act.html
The Muslim's want to keep their illegal alien middle-east men free from local law enforcement ... WHY?
The bill would also expand the scope of the National Crime Information Center database (which is accessed in routine situations by police to identify wanted criminals) to include individuals solely based on immigration status violations. "

Funny that could have gotten some of the 19 hijackers ... HMMMM.


http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=12600
"People For the American Way is committed to the fundamental right of all Americans – indeed, of all those living within our borders – to the protection of their civil rights and civil liberties. H.R. 2671, the Clear Law Enforcement for Criminal Alien Removal (CLEAR) Act, and S. 1906, the Homeland Security Enhancement Act, pose a very real threat to those rights as well as to the safety of our communities. Introduced in the House on July 9, 2003, by Representative Charles Norwood (R-9th GA), the CLEAR Act requires state and local law enforcement agencies to enforce federal immigration laws in order to receive federal funding under the Immigration and Naturalization Act. The Homeland Security Enhancement Act was introduced in the Senate on November 20, 2003, by Senators Jeff Sessions (R-AL) and Zell Miller (D-GA). While it shares similar language included in the CLEAR Act, in some respects, S. 1906 goes much further and poses an even bigger threat to immigrant communities."

Are you with the Liberal pro-amnesty interest groups or the Conservatives on this bill????

[WOSG]

My take on the CLEAR Act, btw:

It is fairly obvious that women and men of America want a better immigration policy. We all want to have a simple rule followed,
which the Jordan Commission on immigration outlined:
"The credibility of immigration policy can be measured by a simple yardstick: people who should get in do get in; people who should not get in are kept out; and people who are judged deportable are required to leave." - Jordan Commission on Immigration Reform

Anyone who looks at the illegal immigration problem immediately sees
that one problem is lack of enforcement of immigration laws. Laws are ignored in crossing the borders, there is lack of immigration law enforcement in the interior, lack of enforcement of employment sanctions, and a lack of deportation of criminal aliens.

Here is an example:
"Miguel Angelo Gordoba is a child molester and illegally in our country. In August 2001, he finished a four-year sentence at Rivers State Prison for molesting a 2-year old girl in Alma, Georgia. On the day he finished his sentence you would think he would be picked up and deported. As unbelievable as it sounds, the INS, now the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, didn't have his paperwork done. Subsequently, Mr. Gordoba registered as a sex offender, but when the county sheriff went to the listed address to check in on him, all he found was a vacant lot. Mr. Gordoba is one of 80,000 criminal aliens with standing deportation orders that are on the loose within our borders."
http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/clearact.html

There is a good answer to address at least part of this issue - the CLEAR Act, which will get local and Federal law enforcement to team up and enforce immigration law. The CLEAR Act is a great idea to end abuses in the immigration system and a good way to fix the current breakdown in enforcement of immigration law. According to a RoperASW poll from last year, 83 percent of Americans support mandatory detention and forfeiture of property for illegal immigrants, followed by deportation.

Critics of this proposal discredit themselves. Read the following article by Heather MacDonald on the crisis of illegal aliens that has resulted from non-enforcement of immigration law -
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave, Heather Mac Donald)

Then ask yourself if it is appropriate for illegal alien criminals to operate wholly outside and without fear of the law. Of course not. The only reason to oppose this is if you really dont want immigration law to exist, and want to leave gaping holes in enforcement for illegal aliens to walk through.

The CLEAR Act will reduce the massive illegal alien crime wave assaulting many communities. Supporting the CLEAR Act is the sensible thing for any group that has the best interests of America at heart. Opposing the CLEAR Act is opposing the rule of law and homeland security; it is also opposing sanity in immigration policy.

[JustPiper]

Ney Whats Up Bush?

[HennepinPrisoner]

Bump for later read, WOSG. I glanced over it and it looks like you really did your research!

Going to bed now, though. Will read tomorrow morning.

[Pro-Bush]

The polls show clearly that the people are against any form of amnesty. Look for a positive announcement shortly.