[Cannoneer No. 4]

First they cancel Crusader, now they replace towed howitzers with SP mortars.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

FAPL ping

[IGOTMINE]

The Marines were never going to be Crusader customers.

The guy that is working this program for the Corps is a Freeper. A very, very smart guy.

[lormand]

I wonder if they will replace the howitzers in the AC-130s with these?

[U S Army EOD]

I wonder how accurate the RAP rounds are?

[LouD]

The Soviets had a 240m SPArty piece that was apparently very effective. I think the point is to provide transportable shorter range organic fire support, and fill in the longer range mission with air support.

[Peace will be here soon]

The HMT is a seven ton, four wheel cross country vehicle with a capacity for 3.2 tons. It has a 180 horsepower engine

180 HP? That has got to be wrong. A seven ton vehicle ( with a 3.2 ton capacity )with a 180 horsepower engine.

[CatoRenasci]

Well, I'm a redleg, so color me very sceptical of replacing rifled tube artillery with a mortar.

No question that mortars are easier to transport and quicker to fire. They're also easy to use in most ways.

But, mortars have two fundamental flaws as serious battalion and regimental combat team level indirect fire support:

Mortars are not nearly as accurate as tube artillery; and

Mortars have significantly shorter ranges than equivalent bore diameter tube artilllery.

It's been a long time, but I once spent an afternoon pouring over the firing tables for the 4.2" mortar and comparing it to the 105mm howitzer. The differences in range and deflection probable errors were significant. If I had to fire danger close, there's no way I'd do it with mortars. Just, no way.

[The Shootist]

Why use a 122? What's wrong with the 4duce?

[Lurker]

Whaddya think?

L

[Uncle Meat]

Anybody remember the days of 8" artillery[M110 howitzers]?They were eventually replaced with the MLRS.

[SAMWolf]

Bump

[USMCVet]

This is the Lockheed-Martin EFSS candidate - there are several more systems being proposed for the Marine Corps including a couple of rifled 120mm mortars.

The article doesn't mention it, but the Corps is looking at 120s because the 155s are too heavy, bulky and slow moving for long distance air movements, such as for our Expeditionary Maneuver Warfare (EMW) missions. Towed 155s strongly handicap our ground maneuver forces too because they take 20 minutes to set up and they don't move very fast trying to keep up with LAVs, tanks, and armored amphibians.

A rifled 120 with a state-of-the art aiming system shoots very, very well - usually a CEP of 25 meters or so.

Have a look at the Dragon Fire Mortar during your web searches...for another version of the EFSS. The Dragon Fire can be towed behind a HMMWV or loaded onto a modified LAV as a form of fast SP artillery. About this time next year, the Dragon Fire will be capable of firing accurately on the move from its LAV platform.

If somebody would be kind enough to instruct me on how to put a photo on this thread, I'll show you what this puppy looks like.

Whole different world out there!

[Atlas Sneezed]

Bang

[SICSEMPERTYRANNUS]

This article is inaccurate. The Marine Corps still intends to field the Lightweight 155. The 120 mortar is intended to plug the indirect fire support gap between the 81s and the 155.

SIC

[Parmy]

2nd,2nd Mech. had a 4.2 mortor section in their battalion over 30 years ago. They were mounted in the back of M113's, the old tin box we used as mechanized infantry. They went everywhere they were needed.

[Jimmy Valentine]

Crusader was an overweight piece of junk. This will cancel the Stryker.

Regards,

[Snickersnee]

Not wanting to beat this tube-arty vs. mortar thing to death, but another calculation you have to make in comparing the two types is logistics: the howitzer (or gun) is a spot-target weapon. The mortar is an area-target weapon wherein, once the FO is confident of hitting the target after bracketing shots have closed in, the SOP calls for "Section, thirty rounds!" That's a lot of cubic feet and kg's of Class V to expect your logpac to hustle. Not saying it can't be done (having seen both sides up close) but given the "expeditionary mentality" the CSA now expects us to have, I have begun to think as a loggie as much as a fire-support puke.