Invasion of the Math Snatchers

The Independence Institute ^ | Barry Fagin

[PMCarey]

Can you provide some more insight about Saxon in the upper grades? Thanks!!

We're using Saxon in a private high school that we've started this year. We won't be using Saxon next year. I've seen the following problems with Saxon in its Algebra II text:

1. There is very little theory, so the math instruction becomes more of a cookbook of techniques for manipulating symbols rather than an understanding of why you are applying those techniques.
2. It introduces some pretty archaic terms for certain operations that I've never seen before in any math text (I have a Masters in Math for what it's worth.)
3. It jumps back forth from one topic to another within a single chapter. On one page you could be working with quadratic equations, the next page could be on pressure-volume-tempature problems, and then the next page is on imaginary numbers. There is little continuity.
4. Problems from previous chapters get placed in end-of-chapter tests. You may think that's good, but imagine studying for the material in Chapter 9 and realizing that you may have to be responsible for Chapters 1 through 8 as well. That's a nightmare for both the student and the instructor.

Other than that, no problem :-)

[Elric@Melnibone]

Your school emphasizes children "discovering" or "constructing" their own techniques for arithmetic.

My 5th-grade daughter is in a "gifted and talented" math program at her elementary. As near as my wife and I can figure out, it is some kind of self-paced learning program where she has lots of "pre-tests" and practice tests but I don't see much instruction going on.

She brings these worksheets home and it falls to me to help her because I'm the Father (and, besides, I have a BS in Math). When she has trouble with a problem, the first thing I have her do is try to work it out and tell me what she thinks the answer should be.

About half the time, she will get an answer (which may or may not be right) but, when I ask her how she got it, she stumbles badly.

It is apparant to me that she is guessing about the answer and trying to justify it to me. Sometimes I think she has a glimmer of how to do things but often she is just grasping at straws.

When I try to explain how this stuff works, she gets very frustrated (I fully admit I'm not the best teacher in the world) because she really doesn't have enough grounding to understand the explainations about what she's doing.

[BJungNan]

Oh my gosh! The math snatchers are back. Yikes, they got me the first time around.

[BJungNan]

"Math is hard, let's go shopping!"

Tell me again, what is wrong with this little Barbie saying. Sounds just like my daughter.

[PMCarey]

I give up---*why* is six times seven forty-two?

That's a good question and if you've tried to teach a youngster their multiplication tables you might appreciate it a bit more. Let's say you want to teach the multiplication table up through 12x12, well if you memorize all possible combinations of the integers 1 through 12 you'll end up with 78 facts to memorize. Ugghh.

Perhaps if we try to reason our way to this we might have to memorize less facts. For example memorize the squares of the first 12 integers (that's 12 facts) and then learn that near squares are whole numbers away from the squares (that's another fact). So, we know that 6X6=36 and since 6X7 is one multiple of 6 more than 36 it must be 42 (or you can go down from 7X7 to 7X6). You can use other shortcuts to cut down the number of facts you have to memorize for the complete 12x12 multiplication table. The essential point is that you teach kids to use reason in addition to their memorized facts. That's the difference.

[PMCarey]

any suggestions for a math program?

Singapore Math. It'll challenge your kid, but it sounds like he would love it.

[RightWhale]

How about sliderules. Parents were royally annoyed when I bought a sliderule in 10th grade. But I used the thing and got so I could visualize it to some degree and get some quick answers without actually looking. Calculators are clunky and won't give you instant ballpark. A classmate memorized logs to 2 places, just the first page of the tables. Amazing things could be done with that, too.

[jaugust]

ROFLMAO!!!!

[rwfromkansas]

I tried doing math in my head, and the teacher showed how to do it, but it just never worked for me.

I can obviously do basic stuff, but ask me to do an equation in my head....aint gonna happen.

You are lucky though; I think it is great when people are able to do that. I remember seeing some people who can do math, even very complex math, with amazing speed...a lot faster us drones using a calculator can figure it out.

[redhead]

"Oh my gosh! The math snatchers are back. Yikes, they got me the first time around."

In 1970, my son's teacher held her entire 3rd grade class back while she taught them real math (after a disastrous attempt at the "New Math").

[iconoclast]

The program you are referring to is called Accelerated Math. I am a math teacher and we use this program in our Middle School.

Just curious, what is your undergrad major?

Your grad major?

[rwfromkansas]

How sad.

[BoozeHag]

I read the book years ago as a teacher's as readers group. I'm sure it was chosen because the author is a popular one. (Lois Lowry...I think) It was odd.

[AmishDude]

Is your 11 year old using the definition of the limit (epsilon-delta)?

[Nebullis]

"Math is hard, let's go shopping!"

This is hillarious! I need to find one of these for my daughter!

[BoozeHag]

When I entered OSU in the late 70s I took a course called Math, the calculator approach. Thankfully, it was all the math I ever needed!

[luckystarmom]

My son did Saxon math in first and second grade at a private school, and he was bored to tears. He is gifted in math, and Saxon is toooooo repetitive.

He's in public school now. Math was okay in 3rd, but now he's bored again in 4th.

[luckystarmom]

My fourth grader has never used a calculator for math. He is very bored with long division, but he knows how to do it.

[luckystarmom]

It's bad for kids that are gifted.

[mikegi]

I'm the worst teacher in the world so it's difficult for me to comment on this topic. However, there are some teaching methods that are obviously devastating to learning. My nephew's school switched over to that idiotic "group think" math method and it nearly ended his education. He's bright and got tired of the lazy kids in his group getting credit for his work. Getting a negative attitude about school is a bad thing.

I had my own bout with the negative attitude problem. The trigger was in 10th or 11th grade when I got a very low math test score even though I got the answers right (didn't show my work). A girl near me had the wrong answers yet she got a higher score. Why? Because she tried harder. My attitude was "screw this". I barely graduated from high school and flunked out of college (only got in because of the SAT). Funny thing is that the math teacher who gave me all the low scores later pulled me out of study hall to be in her computer programming class. I had been kicked out of Spanish class into study hall and was drifting. Programming was a perfect match and I'm still doing it 25 years later.

Anyway, I need to learn about the various school methods soon! Our 4yo daughter is bright and has an exceptional memory (to the point of being weird). I imagine the elementary school work will bore her, possibly causing an attitude problem similar to mine but much earlier. Adding to this is that she was born on Sep30, just a few weeks after the cutoff. So, she'll either be the oldest or youngest in her class depending on whether we send her to private school the first two years. My wife and I have struggled with this for quite a while. I lean towards her being the oldest and possibly a little bored. I just don't think it's right to have her struggle with school at such a young age. If she's truly gifted then she can skip a grade later on.

Anyone out there have to deal with this issue?