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To: missyme
=== The Christian idea is Jewish...As quoted by the Jewish Apostles

That was part of my misunderstanding, I suppose ... that we'd inherited the Messianic visions -- the one riding an ass into Jerusalem and the "second coming" triumphal return -- from the Judaic tradition.
60 posted on 01/15/2004 7:21:04 PM PST by Askel5
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To: Askel5
Jesus did say he'd come "with a sword" but I can see where many Jews would have been disappointed in him as Messiah given the fact they actually are expecting a warrior of this world.
61 posted on 01/15/2004 7:22:05 PM PST by Askel5
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To: Askel5
Christianity would mean "nothing" if it wasn't rooted in Judiasm and had a vision by G-d for the Gentile world.
63 posted on 01/15/2004 7:24:10 PM PST by missyme
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To: Askel5
That was part of my misunderstanding, I suppose ... that we'd inherited the Messianic visions -- the one riding an ass into Jerusalem and the "second coming" triumphal return -- from the Judaic tradition.

It was really the reverse. The idea of a suffering or defeated messiah originated in Christianity, and passed from there into Judaism (as a sort of minority opinion). My guess would be that this happened after the defeat of the bar Kochba rebellion in 135 C.E. In the Jewish version, there are two messiahs -- one who is defeated in battle (the bar Kochba figure) and one who is subsequently triumphant. This gets a mention in the Talmud, but not much more than that. That the Jewish version of this postdates the Christian version is discussed in one of Raphael Patai's books. And despite claims to the contrary concerning one manuscript, Geza Vermes, the preeminent scholar of the Dead Sea Scrolls and second temple Judaism, likewise agrees that there is no definitive evidence of the existence of this idea before the rise of Christianity.

This is confirmed, in a way, in the gospel accounts themselves. The disciples of Jesus are shocked to hear him foretell his own death. They certainly didn't seem to have a concept of a suffering messiah. If this was an idea with wide currency at the time, one wouldn't think his disciples would have expressed such surprise.

100 posted on 01/16/2004 6:36:44 AM PST by malakhi (This space intentionally left blank.)
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