The New German Army

United Press International ^ | January 14, 2004 | Martin Walker

[quidnunc]

Most of the attention on Germany's sweeping cuts in its defense budget has focused on the money. That's understandable, with Germany now on track to be spending a bare 1 percent of gross domestic product on defense (Britain spends nearly 3 percent and the United States almost 4 percent). But the real story lies in the transformation of the still-formidable German military.

Defense Minister Peter Struck's announcement noted that 100 of Germany's bases (about one in five) will be closed and the current armed forces of 285,000 troops, sailors and airmen will be cut back to 250,000. Moreover, the present organization of the German army into three armored and two mechanized infantry divisions, with 2,400 Leopard tanks, is being subjected to the most-dramatic change in the Bundeswehr's history.

Still broadly configured for that great Cold War clash of tank armies in Central Europe that never came, the Bundeswehr is being transformed into the world's first post-modern military force. If ever the revived Red Army were to come sweeping through the North German plain, Struck's new army would probably be in no shape to do much more than hand them speeding tickets as they sweep past to the English Channel.

-snip-

[Michael81Dus]

There is some pressure here on the part of the Democratic Party to reestablish the draft,

Yeah, I´ve heard about it here on FR.

if such a thing were to occur, there would be so many volunteers that the draft would be unnecessary.

In the US, probably, however, things here are different. I get the impression that people aren´t that patriotic and the young men get a feeling to serve their country - no matter wether by doing a civilian service or the military service. And there are advantages for our military as well. The public keeps its interest in the military, we can use the skills and intelligence of the young soldiers. And, it makes sure that the army is not developing its own world. Here, we don´t break recruits, we want them to keep their personality and dignity. Our aim is to make them a soldier who is ready and willing to fulfill his mission by its own choice, even though "ve haf veys to macke themm serfing voluntarry" (if nothing works, they´ll serve in our cells), but still, things like cleaning restrooms with toothbrushes means a heavy penalty for the soldier having given that order. It occurs very seldom that we have to persuade the recruits by force, the vast majority is clever enough to understand the necessity of their service. And, all are actually there by their own choice: they could have served in a civilian facility like a hospital in their hometown, if they wanted.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

What threat does Germany face? Who are the potential adversaries? What missions are so critical that Germany must retain a unilateral capability to accomplish them?

The real defense of Germany does not depend on the Bundeswehr. It depends on the willingness of German women to have children. I think they have already lost that war.

[americanbychoice]

Michael, either you want a good military or abolish it completely. This nicey, nicey, dignity BS doesn't belong there. Your new Recruits serve enough time to be a danger to themselves and everyone else. The short time they serve doesn't train them enough to protect anything, least of all themselves. How much dignity does a dead Soldier have after all?
Either train your soldiers properly ( No, 9 month of active duty doesn't cut it in training), or let the French protect you. Germans could always join in the French foreign Legion?

[americanbychoice]

The Germans have become too lazy to breed?

[Cap'n Crunch]

A quick hello,

My relatives were from Hessen, I hope one day to visit Germany.

I enjoy reading military history and believe that German troops are some of the finest to have ever stepped onto the battlefield.

Take care.

[Michael81Dus]

Good morning,

I already experienced that you are an expert in everything. Thanks for your advice, but it is not wanted here. You always know better, even if you don´t. Have your opinion, fine, but realize that sometimes others think of your opinion as a fantasy world.

Apparently, you have no clue of what is required to successfully lead troops during a protection mission. Our drafted soldiers aren´t trained to hunt for Al Quaida, they´re trained to defend important facilities, and in the worst case defend the homeland against whoever. For that, you need manpower who are capable to use their guns and equipment properly and who know how to behave in a military structure.

America has sent 18 years old to combat in Iraq. How many years of experience do they have? Approximately half a year... you´re right, how many dignity can a dead soldier have?

Michael

[americanbychoice]

In other words, the 9 months worth of training does prepare your soldiers for the real thing? Oh, I forgot, because of "your history, the German soldiers aren't supposed to engage in war fare, with the exception of the Balkans.
It is you who always pretend to know everything. As a 22 yaer old you even argue with people who went through the situations. You cofessed to me a few months ago that you get bored about reading. Where do you get your information, does it go like this: "A friend of mine talked to a friend whose friend knows about x"?
I do understand that at your age, there is nothing else to learn, you know everything and everyone else is wrong.
It must be a German trait, since I remember doing much of the same thing at your age. Then I stepped back and absorbed the real world and kept on learning.
I am 61 years old, have lived through the hard times in your country, was there when the changes occured long before you were even a gleam in your fathers eye.

[Michael81Dus]

You confuse my words and seem unwillig to learn. What makes you an expert of military in general and the German armed forces in particular? What is it that you take the right to insult my comrades? I more and more get the impression that you are a pessimistic person regarding my country. You ignore that Germans weren´t wanted in military actions outside its territory until the mid-90´s. And after that, we have been engaged in the Kosovo war and the war on Afghanistan.

[americanbychoice]

I am not insulting your comrads. I am just questioning the short time of service that the german military requires.
At 22, you have a lot to learn, my friend. You want to be the expert on everything. From economic principles, of which you admit you have no comprehension at all, to American Taxes vs German( Yesterday), to just about everything under the sun. Start reading ( which you hate doing) and educate yourself before making some ridiculous claims.
I have always heard the Argument about "because of our history" etc. That changed in the Balkans, which was not a UN sanctioned event, for the first time.

[Michael81Dus]

If not for my manners....

From economic principles, of which you admit you have no comprehension at all,

Get real, I admitted that I have not "that much understanding for business" and not I were a dummy.

to American Taxes vs German( Yesterday),

I habe been correct on that. Germans are free to escape from Germanys taxation - and many do - while you cannot escape US taxation.

( which you hate doing)

Another insult and false claim. I am not willing to read biased propaganda in foreign languages. I like reading - but things I choose to read and not what others want me to read!

have always heard the Argument about "because of our history" etc. That changed in the Balkans, which was not a UN sanctioned event, for the first time.

Now another point where you prove to have no clue of German politics, except what your leftist family tells you. Because of our history and our constitution, we were not allowed to engage in other wars until 1994. In Kosovo, the united and free Germany fulfilled its obligation to humanity by preventing ethnic groups from slaughtering each other along with other NATO members. It was a necessity to act here. Germany has a responsibility for freedom and human rights in Europe BECAUSE OF ITS HISTORY!

And now stop going on my nerves.

[Michael81Dus]

Your new Recruits serve enough time to be a danger to themselves and everyone else. The short time they serve doesn't train them enough to protect anything, least of all themselves.

Oh, and that´s insulting very well. As if my comrades would be a danger to themselves and "everyone else". You are a great expert of military, indeed. And you know what soldiers can learn within 9 months sure. Have you replied to my question about the 18 years old dead GI´s? No? Could be pretty embarrassing for you to admit that your country sends those young guys to combat although they´ve served only several months before.

At least we keep our drafted soldiers just for the emergency.

[Spandau]

Germany builds great weapons. The Gew 98 is my all-time favorite. The MG42 soldiers on as the MG3 after 60 years of service.

[Michael81Dus]

LOL - not the rifle I´d like to have during missions these days, but an acceptable gun then, during the old times.

The MG3 indeed is a good machine gun, and still useful.

[americanbychoice]

Michael, as many have said on this forum before me, you are an arrogant, know it all punk. Don't try to lecture me about anything you have no idea of. Just like the tax statement. Since you don't like reading, you just use conjecture or hearsay and try to trump it as truth. I have been in international business my entire career, don't try to lecture me. I hate to have that happen from 22 year olds.
Please don't write to me again. I just don't want to hear from ignorant punks.

[Michael81Dus]

Your problem is, you get personal, make false claims which you cannot prove, remain questions from others unanswered because to answer them is unfavourable for you. I have the last post, that was your idea.

as many have

Who, except you and tictoc? Btw, you both are very similar - you want others to completely follow your opinions, and don´t allow any different views (for instance on the EU and the Israel/Palestine conflict).

said on this forum before me, you are an arrogant, know it all punk.

Awww, you get offensive. Now if that´s all you can do to counter me, I feel sorry for you. Since you weren´t able to be objevtive the last posts, I cannot help you.

I just don't want to hear from ignorant punks.

Oh, you won´t, since I am not an "ignorant punk". But don´t expect me to be silent when you call out your false claims again - I will challenge you.

[Spandau]

You're right. If I were a soldier, I wouldn't want to carry the old Gewehr 98 either, but I am just a collector and a gun-nut. They are pleasant to shoot with that long barrel, and curious people will wander over to look when you pull a Gew 98 out at the range.

Did you know the U.S. was interested in adopting the MG42 at one point? I understand the U.S. even put together a few prototypes, but could not get it to feed properly with .30-06.

[Michael81Dus]

Yeah, the different cal. - and then there might have been the US armament industry requesting the Army to buy "made in the U.S.A." ;-)

A nice hobby to collect guns. Have you ever shot with a MG3 or the MG42?

[Spandau]

No, never fired the MGs. A few years ago, I saw an MG42 at a gun show. It was an original that someone had brought back from Europe and World War II. Price was about $18,000 which by now is probably up to $25-30,000. It was a really cool piece of history, but would be too expensive to own and shoot for most people. 8mm is very easy to get at a good price in the U.S. right now, but you would need a lot, because you know the rate of fire is just astonishing.

You are also right about the US armament industry wanting the Army to buy USA. I think that is why the M14 was chosen over the FAL years ago. Times change though, so these days our small arms are produced by FN, and barrels for the Abrams tank by Rheinmetall.

[Michael81Dus]

Well, Heckler&Koch is owned by the Brits, the company producing Dolphin Class subs is sold to a US company - our armament industry is sold out.

I regulary shoot with the MG3 - and it´s fun. If you don´t take care, you could get a shoulder contusion. After WWII, we just took of the Nazi insignia off the MG´s, and replaced one piece, and here we have the old and new MG3!

But like you said, times change, and these days there are so many different rifles on the market, one cannot really say which one´s the best. It all depends on the mission.

Many regards,

Michael

[risk]

bumping to read later - Michael, you do your country a great service by representing its freedom-loving and defending side so well.