Yes, there are losers, but we all gain from free trade

Indianapolis Star ^ | 14 January 2004 | Peter Z. Grossman

[Protagoras]

Lets talk about those spacious, luxurious dormitories too while we're at it.

So you feel sorry for the Chinese workers? That's your point?

I guess they will do better with no jobs. Then they will live in spacious houses and drive big cars.

[hedgetrimmer]

Dongguan Elegant Top Shoes Co., Ltd.
Explanation of a Worker's Payroll Stub
By Li Qiang, China Labor Watch
October 2001

Name Zhang
Basic wage 18.25
Meal and dorm 60


1. The wages are calculated by day. The factory administration does not obey the minimum wage standard in Dongguan. The daily pay for new workers is as low as 16 Yuan (or 1.95 US dollar).

The basic wage of a new worker is 16 Yuan or 1.95 US dollar. [1] The average hourly wage is 18 Yuan or 27.4 US cents, while the minimum hourly pay rate is 31.2 US cents.[2] The factory does not pay even minimum wage to the workers. The minimum monthly pay is 450 Yuan but the factory only gives the workers 400 Yuan.

A typical wage slip of Mr. Zhang is attached in this report. For the month in which Mr. Zhang got his largest wages, his basic daily wage is 18.5 Yuan and he worked 23 days in this month. His gross pay was 18.5 x 23 = 425.5 Yuan.

[hedgetrimmer]

Changing the subject. You declared that American workers aren't competitive. I show you what they have to compete with. Now you are trying to change the subject. American workers cannot compete with slave labor and you know it. They only way they can "compete" is to become slaves themselves and you know it. The "free traders" lie about the benefits. Its like telling the cattle to get into the cattle car-- they are going vacation, when you are really taking them to the slaughterhouse.

[looscnnn]

"Most people on this forum, and rightly so, would view a government subsidy of an industry with disdain, but tariffs are a subsidy by a different name"

So is unemployment and welfare. We would have more people on the dole if something is not done. I don't recall saying we should have tariffs.

Your right about no one has a right to work, but the have a right to expect that their job will not get shipped over seas like the IBM programmers.

"Tell me why I should buy inferior products at higher prices in order so that a less efficient company should remain in business?"

I find that statement amazing, considering that a lot of people like you state that we are more efficient and that our products are superior.

[hedgetrimmer]

Chinese workers are subsidized.

Look at the dormitories for the three gorges dam workers

[looscnnn]

"When capital flows out of one industry into another, people lose their jobs, investments, etc. That's the nature of the beast."

Except that capital is not flowing out of the IT industry to others, the jobs are being relocated. The capital is still there.

"Are we all better off from lower prices for goods and a larger market to which we have the opportunity to sell? Yes."

Really? What good it lower prices when you are unemployed and can bearly pay for the essentials? Lower prices are on non-essentials. We get very little essentials from overseas, so the prices have not really gone down.

[Protagoras]

You declared that American workers aren't competitive.

That never happened. You seem confused on more than one level. Better go find the poster who said that, it wasn't me. I won't wait for an apology.

[looscnnn]

"Oh, so what you're saying is that an American worker is less productive? I see."

Per your own words in a post to me "Tell me why I should buy inferior products at higher prices in order so that a less efficient company should remain in business?"

You can not be productive and not be efficient.

[Protagoras]

Who are they slave to? Their government?

I am a slave to the US government. I work a huge part of each day and each year to feed government schemes, like protectionist tariffs.

Now tell me about your great concern for the "slaves" in China and their working conditions. I'm very interested in your altruism in regard to them.

[JOAT]

Your wasting your breath brother. "Capitalists" like Viva Le Dissention don't want annoying factoids. They KNOW they are right. Who gives a damn if the nation sinks into third world status? By golly, we are CAPITALISTS! No matter what, we will defend screwing over our fellow citizens on principle.

What the pantywaists fail to recognize is that the only reason "lower priced goods" that "benefit everyone" seem to be a good thing, is because there is still a vestige of disposable income to buy trinkety crap from WalMart. When and if we continue to slide into debt as individual households, and the bankruptcy rates increase over their already RECORD levels, no one is going to want any of that slave-produced garbage anymore. The only true comsumption economy, America, will cease to fuel the Globalization Economy.

They are quite aware of this, but it will not matter anymore. We'll be one big global happy family. Taking our direction from a single government. And we'll be happy to live like third world serfs.

[looscnnn]

"They only way they can "compete" is to become slaves themselves and you know it."

Maybe that is what Protagoras wants?

[hedgetrimmer]

I work a huge part of each day and each year to feed government schemes like

The WTO, the IMF, the Millenium Challenge, OPIC, INF, the United Nations, the Summit of the Americas, the Organization of American States,Tropical Forest Conservation Act, sponsoring the creation of hemispheric centers for teacher excellence; sponsoring the creation of the new Latin E-business Fellowship program etc etc etc

Juntos podemos. Juntos lo haremos.

[hedgetrimmer]

I work a huge part of each day and each year to feed government schemes like

Andean Regional Initiative: In order to promote stability and democracy in the Andean region, the President's FY02 budget request includes $882 million in international affairs funding for democratic institution building and development assistance, as well as counter-drug programs, for the seven countries included in the initiative: Bolivia, Brazil, Colombia, Ecuador, Panama, Peru and Venezuela.

[Protagoras]

My money is stolen and used for a variety of purposes. Including buying votes from people who like subsidies like tariffs.

Juntos podemos. Juntos lo haremos.

I speak english, if you want to converse with me, you need to speak english as well.

[hedgetrimmer]

I work a huge part of each day and each year to feed government schemes, like

the Organization of American States, Inter-American Drug Abuse Control Commission (OAS-CICAD). The United States provided $2.8 million to CICAD in FY 2001 for its regular programs and an additional $5.3 million for alternative development programs. It is anticipated that similar amounts will be provided in fiscal year 2002. The United States provides the majority of CICAD's funds

[the gillman@blacklagoon.com]

No, we don't.

[Protagoras]

Maybe that is what Protagoras wants?

If you want to know what I want, it's best to ask ME, not speculate.

[Protagoras]

Listing improper government spending is your idea of debating free trade?

[Beck_isright]

Bookmark for later rant..

[hedgetrimmer]

My money is stolen and used for a variety of purposes

Then you should object to tax money subsidizing the WTO. It is unconstitutional, where tariffs are not.