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To: PetroniDE
The problem is NOT the voting system (punch cards, e-slate, whatever).

I disagree flatly. For starters, our campaign to demand a voter-verifiable audit trail is not about voter fraud. It is based on the recognition that computers and their programs are subject to failure, and these systems DO NOT have the necessary safeguards established in them.

However, the resolution we propose, by its very nature, helps eliminate fraud by requiring random, mandatory audits.

Dave Dill is professor of computer science. I'm a 30-year career programmer. Here are some talking points that I would ask you to consider, which I present strictly from the perspective of a geek that has written more programs, and introduced more errors into said programs, than I care to acknowledge:

To recap, the certification process must be looked at and refined, the ethics of the manufactures have to be scrutinized, controls on all of the above need to be strengthened, and YES - we need a paper trail.

The failures that have been detected in VA, MD and FL provide ample evidence that simply having properly trained election workers simply does not bring us a solution.

158 posted on 01/13/2004 8:01:38 PM PST by GregD
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To: GregD; yay
Thanks for the post. It is a worrisome problem.

How in the world can we program a smart bomb to go through a particular window in Saddam's palace, and not be able to properly program a voter machine that will give me a complete print out of my vote?

We're still using the pull levers behind the curtain in the Philly suburbs - just like in the city, where the Dems get over 100% of the vote every time. :-)

167 posted on 01/13/2004 9:54:28 PM PST by baseballmom
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To: GregD
Welcome...I applaud your effort.
I disagree with your premise. The Touch screen voting IS about vote fraud, otherwise, what's the point of The Help America Vote Act of 2002 ?
(other than millions of contract taxpayer dollars to be had, but that's a different issue for a different time).

Nor do I think what you & S1980 & HR2239 want to be accomplished can be ready by 11/2004 (actually, it has to be completed a couple months before).

Near as I can figure, S1980 & HR2239 want to move the effective date from on or after after 1/1/2006 to 11/2004. I think it should be moved further in the future than 1/1/2006.

I see two different issues.
A voter-verifiable audit trail and software controls\certification.

I have been blowing up code since Christ was a Corporal.

I have been through every kind of development\deployment any Dilbert boss has devised.
I have yet to see ANY code error free.

the best possible certification you can get, especially in this case is:
"good enough for government work" and that's not good enough when it comes to my vote.

Diebold is worldwide and is an outsourcing company. Who is doing the coding ?... that scares the beejeebers out of me.

GEMS is also a Windows based app and that scares the beejeebers out of me. What if any problem is on the Windows end ? Windows EULA doesn't guarantee it's own fitness of use...so who is going to certify Windows ? It appears Microsoft would(or should) be subject to S1980 & HR2239. Do you think they are going to give up their source without a fight ?

Diebold says, as of 12/13/03 they are in the process of revamping their certification process. That tells me they are admitting the current process is flawed.

Good luck in your fight. I wont be joining it, as, for now, i am against touch screen voting...with or without an audit trail.
172 posted on 01/13/2004 11:55:29 PM PST by stylin19a (Is it vietnam yet ?)
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To: GregD
I was hoping you would respond in a reasonable manner. Looks like you did. I will tackle your post item by item. My response is in bold. Will not call you names but now is a chance to clarify my position on this issue.

I disagree flatly. For starters, our campaign to demand a voter-verifiable audit trail is not about voter fraud. It is based on the recognition that computers and their programs are subject to failure, and these systems DO NOT have the necessary safeguards established in them.

My concern is voter fraud. As we saw in 2000 (and other elections too numerous) paper systems are subject to failure (and not necessarily accidental).

However, the resolution we propose, by its very nature, helps eliminate fraud by requiring random, mandatory audits.

Here we agree, just don't be fooled into thinking paper trails will solve the problem by itself.

Dave Dill is professor ... than I care to acknowledge:

I have a M.S. in Engineering and Registered P.E. Also have three years experience as an election judge (paper and e-slate computer systems). Just so you know where my expertise is.

We have not invented the means by which an error-free program can be written. At least not one of the sophistication needed to configure and run elections.

Do you live in TX? We used e-slates in Houston during the 2002 and 2003 elections, and except in precincts run by incompetant people (more about that some other time), we had no problems. All of the judges and clerks were required to attend training regarding poll operation and safeguards, so the problem precincts had no excuses. Your error free comment is handled better in the next statement.

Current law does not REQUIRE that ...

The rest of your bullet items touch on QA, QC, ISO-9000, and related issues where in general, I am in agreement. The only certain method to verify code is to obtain a copy of said code, not check paper trails. There will be proprietary issues, but they can be handled. I touched on this in a recent previous post above.

To recap, the certification process must be looked at and refined, the ethics of the manufactures have to be scrutinized, controls on all of the above need to be strengthened, and YES - we need a paper trail.

Agreement regarding certification process (the machines, equipment, software, etc) and if you want a paper trail for it, fine. But that process must be completed BEFORE election day. Election day is too late. Paper trails are fine, but too many people think that will solve the problem alone. It will not.

The failures that have been detected in VA, MD and FL provide ample evidence that simply having properly trained election workers simply does not bring us a solution.

You forgot something. The word honest. What happened in Florida was not incompetance; it was dis-honesty. Paper can be manipulated more easily than computers. I have read post from people who want the old punch card system, and with that, you don't even need to go to the booth to stuff the totals.

My Summary: Put competant and honest people in charge of the election process, and add you "quality control" checks toward system development, and you won't need a paper trail. See, no name calling, no insults, no profanity.

177 posted on 01/14/2004 6:25:05 AM PST by PetroniDE (Kitty Is My Master - I Do What She Says)
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