Replies

I agree that a lot of pro-choice Catholics are not really faithful -- they just grew up being called Catholic and came to accept that identity. I know other pro-choice Catholics who are very faithful -- raise their kids to be believers, attend church every week, teach Bible study, whatever. I think some evangelicals are being genuine when they accuse others of not being "real Christians" or even, a bit outside their own realm, "real Catholics." But others just have an agenda.

Abortion is NOT in a different category than welfare in one crucial respect: the Catholic church has long expressed support for enlarging the welfare state, just as it has expressed opposition to abortion. The Catholic church is also explicitly opposed to the death penalty and to any wars (like the one in Iraq) that don't meet certain criteria. Most evangelical Christians take the "conservative" position on all those: support for the death penalty, support for pretty much any war the president says we need, and opposition to the welfare state. And that's fine -- all perfectly justifiable positions. Just acknowledge that, by an orthodox definition, no Catholic could stray from the Church on any of those other doctrines, either.

Again, I'm no Catholic, so I don't feel the need to do what the Church says.

See, now I have not yet met a pro-choice Catholic that really seems involved with their faith in a personal way. Oh, they may send their kids to Catholic School, and mass, and participate in Bingo night, but I have not met any that, for instance, do regular scripture study with their kids or homeschool.

I have met homeschooling Catholics that hold are prolife. I have never asked them their opinion on the war or the death penalty; I think I will!

Abortion is NOT in a different category than welfare in one crucial respect: the Catholic church has long expressed support for enlarging the welfare state, just as it has expressed opposition to abortion. The Catholic church is also explicitly opposed to the death penalty and to any wars (like the one in Iraq) that don't meet certain criteria. Most evangelical Christians take the "conservative" position on all those: support for the death penalty, support for pretty much any war the president says we need, and opposition to the welfare state. And that's fine -- all perfectly justifiable positions. Just acknowledge that, by an orthodox definition, no Catholic could stray from the Church on any of those other doctrines, either.

I strongly disagree with this paragraph.

Dear Miggsathon,

It is the consistent teaching of the Holy Catholic Church that, in principle, the state may execute offenders under certain circumstances. Even the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, a document which takes the most extreme position on the death penalty permitted by the consistent teaching of the Church, allows that the death penalty can sometimes be the moral choice.

As to enlarging the welfare state, authoritative Church teaching does not require acceptance of specific political programs or policies. Read the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, and you'll find that the Church sticks to general principles about how the economic ordering of a society ought to occur, without ever endorsing specific systems of ordering, or policies and programs related thereto. In fact, you will find, in reading the actual teachings of the Catholic Church, that the only sorts of systems that are totally condemned are collectivist in nature. The Church has authoritatively taught that socialism, communism, and other thoroughgoing, systematic collectivist systems are inherently evil, and are not legitimate for the ordering of society.

As for war, again, the Church limits herself to explication of principles. Regarding the current efforts in Iraq, Catholics have applied these principles and come up with differing conclusions. So, some Catholics think the war is unjust, according to Catholic principles. Others think that it is just according to the same principles.

But the Church teaches that it is those who hold legitimate authority in civil societies who must make the final judgement as to whether a war is just or unjust. It is a "prudential" decision, and prudential decisions lie with the individuals most competent to make them. On matters of faith and morals, and Church discipline, the individuals to whom these decisions are left are our sacred pastors, our priests, bishops, and most especially, our Holy Father. On matters of war and peace, civil order, economics, etc., the legitimate competent authorities are our political leaders. In a representative democracy, like the United States, the individuals who may legitimately make these prudential decisions are our elected leaders, in conformance with our own constitutional system of government.

Thus, a particular cleric may have an opinion of the justness of the current war, and he may express it. But his opinion isn't dispositive, and the decision for war is not his to make.

On the question of abortion, on the other hand, it is the consistent teaching of the Church that procured abortion is intrinsically evil, and can never be justified. It is the consistent teaching of the Church that it is a grave crime, and that it violates that right of the unborn human being to live. It is the consistent teaching of the Church that a just social order must not permit abortion in law, and that Catholics are always and everywhere obligated to enact just laws which protect the lives of unborn human beings.

For Catholics, the questions which you have tried to blur do, indeed, differ. Considerably.

sitetest

You are confusing the personal opinions of some heirarchs with Catholic teaching.

You are mistaken about Church teaching (or lack thereof) on a number of issues. Nothing personal, as many, many Catholics are likewise mistaken.

Miggsathon Since Jan 10, 2004

Oh BTW, welcome to FR "Jennifer".