Immigrant Realities

WSJ ^ | January 9, 2004

[FredTownWard]

If there REALLY is a NEED for more labor in America, then change the quotas and allow more legal aliens in, DON'T REWARD THOSE WHO BREAK OUR LAWS BY ALLOWING THEM TO SETTLE HERE.


This comment, ZULU, is your most important. You instinctively sense here what too many critics of this foolishly reject, that there is an economic necessity that needs filling. The problem is insisting that the 8,000,000+ illegals already here must FIRST all be rounded up and deported before the laws are changed to allow them and others back in again legally. That is just too impractical to work. It would be a little like making ALL the illegally escaped slaves FIRST return to their plantations before they would all be freed after the Civil War just so that they wouldn't have an unfair advantage over the law obeying slaves who had stayed home.

As for your other fears, they are mostly unfounded. Hispanics are by your broad cultural definition Anglos: of European descent ethnically, culturally, and religiously. The language barrier is no greater than that faced by Germans, Poles, Italians, etc. before them, easily solved in one generation UNLESS their children are shunted off to bilingual ghettos in school. What's more if you are serious about fears of terrorists hiding among them, you ought to support legalization of SOME kind as an alternative to leaving them out their hiding indefinitely.

Finally, even if you continue to disagree, I wouldn't stay home on election day if I were you, at least not unless you think you will like President Howard Dean's immigration policy better.

[azhenfud]

"..we can't stop immigrants short of means that will violate our traditions, our conscience, and our national interest."

Respectfully, I submit to you, that is Balloon Stuffing. If 3/4 of Illegaliens became legal, they could and would demand more for their labor; not a bad thing in and of itself, but companies that crave "cheap labor" (I hate that term, as it demeans the worker) will see to it 6-10 million more cross the border to fill the void the original Illegaliens made.

You, as an individual, can sign a complaint at your regional INS office reporting violators of our immigration laws and file suit against those FELONS. One or two area cases prosecuted with guilty verdicts and stiff sanctions levied against violators would force other companies to comply to current law. If there are enough complaints, soon someone will wake up. Each of us (those that really care to have our nation back) can take action on this issue - we don't have to be passive, just personal.

[Exton1]

So you support slavery? You support the fact that the tax payer subsidize the employer? That “cheap” labor costs us in bankrupt hospitals, over crowded and failing schools, the loss of our sovereignty, language, and culture.

[FredTownWard]

Hey, what other laws should we just give up on because enforcement is too nasty or politically uncomfortable? Let's legalize drugs, prostitution, etc. We should not look for tax evaders or cheaters because we don't have the resources to investigate the millions of cheaters or to enforce the law against those we catch. We should eliminate all other laws against unfair business practices while we're at it.

I know that you are trying to be sarcastic here, Spiff, but if you have a law that cannot be enforced, it is in many cases better to change it than to mindlessly continue on as usual. Lots of people drank illegally under Prohibition. Should the Repeal of Prohibition have been delayed until every illegal drinker and supplier had been hunted down and punished?


We would not need a draft, prison camps, etc. to enforce the current immigration laws.

Considering how many US troops we have currently occupied in hunting down a few thousand people in Afghanistan and Iraq, I think you are wrong about the ease of rounding up a group of people that would if memory serves outnumber our entire current military force.

[FredTownWard]

The problem with your arguments here, azhenfud, is that you are forgetting a basic principle of economics: while we are all sellers of our own labor, we are all also consumers of everybody else's labor. That means that we benefit more from anything that keeps prices low (like lower wages paid to poor immigrants) than we do from anything that artificially raises our OWN wages (like keeping people willing to work for less out). Blaming the fact that Democrat demagogues use low wages to justify transferring some of my earnings and yours to these low wage workers on the workers themselves is blaming the wrong people, especially when discussing non-citizens.

[FredTownWard]

Like it or not, we are a nation of laws where criminals are not rewarded.

Except for illegal drinkers after Prohibition was repealed, illegal speeders after the speed limit was raised, illegally escaped slaves after slavery was outlawed, etc., etc., etc.

[azhenfud]

"I think you are wrong about the ease of rounding up a group of people that would if memory serves outnumber our entire current military force."

If I might interject a thought here; there are millions illegally getting some type of assistance, through SSI, schools, hospitals, and many more with easy to acquire records on applicants. Audits are not abnormal in our society, and if federal or state funds were threatened to be cut off for violators, the list of applicants would quickly diminish.

We have laws prohibiting the feeding of bears on federal lands so the bears will be more likely to stay in their natural habitat. Once in a while, a stray wanders.

Don't feed the Illegaliens. Penalize those that do very stiffly.

[somedaysoon]

"Being born in the world doesn't give someone the right to become an American"

I like that....would make a great bumper sticker.

[Paul C. Jesup]

Hey, what other laws should we just give up on because enforcement is too nasty or politically uncomfortable?

Lets start with income tax and enviromental laws and regulations and work our way down.

[FredTownWard]

So you support slavery?

A person freely agreeing to work for an offered wage is not a slave, Exton1.


You support the fact that the tax payer subsidize the employer?

No, which isn't the case here. No one is paying or proposing to pay companies to hire these people.


That “cheap” labor costs us in bankrupt hospitals, over crowded and failing schools, the loss of our sovereignty, language, and culture.

Artificially raising wages would not give low wage workers more pay; it would merely get them fired so that we would have to pay out even MORE in tax dollars to support them. As for sovereignty, we are losing that NOW by having all these illegals here. Legalizing their status would RESTORE our sovereignty. We won't lose our language if we just teach their kids English, and what exactly is wrong with Spanish-descended, Roman Catholic culture anyway?

[FredTownWard]

Don't feed the Illegaliens. Penalize those that do very stiffly.


Unfortunately you have already admitted that the PRIMARY "feeder" of illegal aliens is the Government:

If I might interject a thought here; there are millions illegally getting some type of assistance, through SSI, schools, hospitals, and many more with easy to acquire records on applicants. Audits are not abnormal in our society, and if federal or state funds were threatened to be cut off for violators, the list of applicants would quickly diminish.


You might be able to intimidate private companies, but there is no way you are going to prevent Democrats from INCREASING their efforts to sign up your (hopefully) now out of work now illegals. Bush's proposal to legalize those that want to work is IMHO a lot more likely to work than hoping that Democrats will stop trying to sign up illegals to every government assistance program they can.

[ZULU]

"The problem is insisting that the 8,000,000+ illegals already here must FIRST all be rounded up and deported before the laws are changed to allow them and others back in again legally. That is just too impractical to work."

Perhaps the logistics of this are a bit overbearing. However, they CAN and SHOULD be returned whenever detected. And suitable punishments dealt out to employers who hired them. To reward them with a general amensty was tried out back in the Reagan Administration, and the fruit of that was the problem confronting us here and now. Allow these people off the hook and they will be followed by millions more, and I'm sure you can realize that.

"It would be a little like making ALL the illegally escaped slaves FIRST return to their plantations before they would all be freed after the Civil War just so that they wouldn't have an unfair advantage over the law obeying slaves who had stayed home."

Not exactly. Slavery is and always was an indenfensible moral evil. Not being born an American is not. And Black Americans, of all those here should resent this action by the Bush Administration most. The U.S. conducted a military operation under Clinton or Bush I in Haiti to keep illegals from coming to America from that country. We supposedly replaced a corrupt government with a popularly elected one (in reality replaced one thug with another).
Are black illegal aliens somehow less desireable than Mexican ones? I hardly think so, but our government is telling us otherwise when it panders to the corrupt regime in Mexico City.


"As for your other fears, they are mostly unfounded. Hispanics are by your broad cultural definition Anglos: of European descent ethnically, culturally, and religiously."

True of those who have immigrated here legally over the years. Not true of the millions of illegals and those bound to follow in their footsteps if the amnesty is approved.

" The language barrier is no greater than that faced by Germans, Poles, Italians, etc. before them, easily solved in one generation UNLESS their children are shunted off to bilingual ghettos in school."

I agree, but there's the rub. The Federal and State governments have foisted upon the American public, Hispanic or not, a flawed program - the bilingual one. Government documents are printed in Spanish and English, so are instructions in stores and directions in public places. This is outrageous. Hispanics are no less intelligent than Italians, Russians or Chinese - they have no problem learning English. A larger flood of illegal Hispanics will only acerbate this problem.

" What's more if you are serious about fears of terrorists hiding among them, you ought to support legalization of SOME kind as an alternative to leaving them out their hiding indefinitely. "

I support rooting them out whenever possible, punishing those who knowingly employ them, putting the military on our borders, and having our President and National Government perform one of their most important Constitutional duties - DEFEND OUR BORDERS FROM INVADERS.

"Finally, even if you continue to disagree, I wouldn't stay home on election day if I were you, at least not unless you think you will like President Howard Dean's immigration policy better."

I won't stay at home on election day. Every American should vote. If this goes through though, whether I vote for Bush or vote for a third party conservative depends on whether or not my anger at Bush is overcome by nausea at whomever the DemocRats put up. But I WILL vote in the primary, and I WILL write in Alan Keys or Tancredo. And I advise everyone reading this forum who believes as I do to do the same. Bush should be sent a message and that message is he was elected to serve the American people, not special interest groups or a personal agenda which is diametrically opposed to the wishes of the overwhelming number of Americans.

[FredTownWard]

How about a tax on wire transfers to Mexico? $5 per wire plus 1% of the amount. No, make it 3%.

Just keep in mind, pogo101, that whenever you tax something, you create an incentive to avoid paying it. Legal and illegal aliens would soon find another way to send money home, and American money wiring companies would lose business to somebody else.

[Capt.YankeeMike]

Poppycock. I am all for the 2000 mile wall. Nothing will get shut down. Americans can and would fill all the jobs.
complete and utter BS.
The Capt.

[pogo101]

Well, people could always risk sending cash. But I fail to see how American wiring companies would "lose money to someone else." Do you mean wiring companies outside of the USA? How would people here get their money there?

[itsahoot]

One or two area cases prosecuted with guilty verdicts and stiff sanctions levied against violators would force other companies to comply to current law. If there are enough complaints, soon someone will wake up.

Just how does this work? The INS won't even take illegals from the local police when asked to, but maybe you have more influence.

[skeeter]

The WSJ is simply NOT credible on the immigration issue.

[harbingr]

How to Destroy America Article by Frosty Wooldridge October 31, 2003 Published in MichNews.com.

excerpt...

In Washington, DC, several weeks ago, an immigration conference was filled to capacity by many of America’s finest minds and leaders....

...a brilliant college professor, Victor Davis Hansen, talked about his latest book, 'MEXIFORNIA', explaining how immigration, both legal and illegal, was destroying the entire State of California...and all vestiges of the American Dream.

Moments later, former Colorado Governor Richard D. Lamm, stood up and gave a stunning speech on How to destroy America. The audience sat spellbound by the eight methods for destruction of the United States.

Lamm said, "If you believe that America is too smug, to self-satisfied, too rich, then let's destroy America. It is not that hard to do. No nation in history has survived the ravages of time. Arnold Toynbee observed that all great civilizations rise and fall, and that, "An autopsy of history would show that all great nations commit suicide."

"Here is how they destroyed their countries," Lamm said. "First, turn America into a bilingual or multi lingual and bicultural country. History shows that no nation can survive the tension, conflict and antagonism of two or more competing languages and cultures. It is a blessing for an individual to be bilingual; however, it is a curse for a society to be bilingual.

Lamm continued on how to destroy America, "Invent 'multiculturalism' and encourage immigrants to maintain their own culture. I would make it an article of belief that all cultures are equal. That there are no cultural differences. I would make it an article of faith that the Black and Hispanic dropout rates are due to prejudice and discrimination by the majority. Every other explanation is out of bounds."

Lamm added, "I would encourage all immigrants to keep their own language and culture. I would replace the melting pot metaphor with the salad bowl metaphor. It is important to ensure that we have various cultural sub-groups living in America reinforcing their differences rather than as Americans, emphasizing their similarities."

"Fourth, I would make our fastest growing demographic group the least educated. I would add a second underclass, unassimilated, undereducated and antagonistic to our population.

"My fifth point for destroying America would be to get big foundations and business to give these efforts lots of money. I would invest in ethnic identity, and I would establish the cult of 'Victimology'. I would get all minorities to think their lack of success was the fault of the majority.

"My sixth plan for America's downfall would include dual citizenship and promote divided loyalties. I would celebrate diversity over unity. I would stress differences rather than similarities. Diverse people worldwide are mostly engaged in hating each other-that is, when they are not killing each other. If we put the emphasis on the 'pluribus' instead of the 'unum, we can balkanize America as surely as Kosovo."

"Next to last, I would place all (discussion) subjects off limits-make it taboo to talk about anything against the cult of 'diversity'."

"I would next make it impossible to enforce our immigration laws. I would develop a mantra: "That because immigration has been good for America, it must ALWAYS be good".

In the last minute of his speech, Governor Lamm wiped his brow. A profound silence swept over the room. Finally, he said, "Lastly, I would censor Victor Davis Hansen's book 'MEXIFORNIA'. His book is dangerous. It exposes the plan to destroy America. If you feel America deserves to be destroyed, don't read that book."

There was no applause. A chilling fear quietly rose like an ominous cloud above every attendee at the conference. Every American in that room knew that everything Lamm enumerated was proceeding methodically, quietly, darkly, yet pervasively across the United States today. Every discussion is being suppressed. Over 100 languages are ripping the foundation of our educational system and national cohesiveness. Barbaric cultures are growing as we celebrate 'diversity'. American jobs are vanishing, 10 million illegal aliens and growing, fast.

"It reminded me of George Orwell's book, '1984'. In that story, three slogans are engraved in the Ministry of Truth building: "War is peace," "Freedom is slavery," and "Ignorance is strength." I sat there as one of this country's most patriotic Americans, Governor Lamm, walked back to his seat. It dawned on everyone at the conference that our nation and the future of this great democracy, are deeply in trouble and worsening fast. An invasion of diseases, clashing cultures, languages, balkinization, mounting environmental dilemmas accelerate by the day. If this immigration monster isn't stopped within three years, it will rage across the United States like a California wildfire and destroy everything in its path, especially the American Dream."

[jimt]

Where's the barf alert? This lying puff-piece by the WSJ waxes eloquent about how the illegals will pay a "fine" for their criminal behavior, while compeltely ignoring the fact that huge numbers of illegals pick the taxpayers' pockets to support their families.

I'm tired of being screwed to support employers' desires for tax-subsidized labor.

[ZULU]

That was BEAUTIFUL.

I would like to buy a copy of Mexifornia - one for me and one to send to Jorge Bush II. Maybe he can have Karlville Rove read it and give him a summary.