Posted on 01/08/2004 11:19:24 PM PST by Cincinatus' Wife
Thought you had the last word, eh ? If you had been paying attention, you would have noticed I already answered the question "In what way is the space program 'essential'?"
The answer is, it's NOT essential.
You completely failed to support your statement "the space program is essential".
A reasonable person would understand that my list of functions is not arbitrary; it comes from the U.S. Constitution.
You seem to be hung up on toll roads, so allow me to clear away that particular issue so it won't continue to interfere with this discussion. I wouldn't mind if all roads were toll roads, as long as the tolls were levied automatically by remote detectors, didn't impede the flow of traffic, and was billed to my bank card. Such technology exists today, I've heard. Having 100% toll roads would eliminate one excuse for gasoline taxes, property taxes, income taxes, etc. and would probably lower my overall travel expenses because I drive fewer miles than the average citizen.
Hell, you're worried about fractions of a penny per year on your tax dollars for a long-term program of exploration and development that could lead to untold wealth
If you want to voluntarily invest your money in something you think will pay off, go right ahead ! Again, government officials should not be trying to make speculative financial investments with tax money that we have no choice in handing to them. And quit implying that I'm cheap. You have no idea how much of my money I spend, or on what. I don't feel bad keeping that information private, because my money was not confiscated from taxpayers with no choice in the matter. To put my previous statement another way: You say you cannot put a price on discovery, but you are happy to send the US taxpayer the bill for it.
You deserve credit for raising your child. But that is something you volunteered for. Nobody (I hope) forced you to do it. Am I getting through now ?
If we turn our backs on the stars, and crawl back to our holes....we lose everything we think we've saved.
I won't turn my back on the stars, nor crawl into a hole. I love learning about the universe; I look forward to all the future discoveries of science. Again, you imply that without government funds, exploration is crippled ! I've offered ideas for alternative sources of funding...you dismissed them.
...it is a path that leads us to stagnation and death as a people...
What a terribly pessimistic and limited view of the world! Please get a life here. Don't grow old hoping for some government-funded discovery of life on another planet!
I'm not implying anything. You're making the statements. I'm just reading what you write. And it's clear to me and probably everyone else that your previous postings, as well as this one, have at their heart one argument. And that is, it's all about bucks. Just look at the words you use, cost, bill, my tax dollars, my money, public vs. private funding, etc. It's nothing but money, profits, bean counting, and the like.
I'm in the research business myself and I'm used to these arguments. Inevitably, it comes down to trying to convince someone whose more interested in pinching pennies today to meet some short-term need for making the goal on some bottom line, and throwing away the chance to gain immensely more down the road. I understand. It's human nature to grab for the comforts of now and fight to preserve those, than take a risk to build something better tomorrow.
You have no idea how much of my money I spend, or on what. I don't feel bad keeping that information private, because my money was not confiscated from taxpayers with no choice in the matter. To put my previous statement another way: You say you cannot put a price on discovery, but you are happy to send the US taxpayer the bill for it.
But that is something you volunteered for. Nobody (I hope) forced you to do it. Am I getting through now ?
Are you crazy? Are you saying I volunteered to have a handicapped child? If so, that's pretty sick. Nobody volunteers for that. Sometimes it happens, and you deal with it. Anyway, you missed the point. The fact that one does not benefit immediately, if at all, from a given situation in a financial sense does not necessarily mean that it is not worth doing, voluntary or not.
Geez, you people are something else somethimes...
Again, you imply that without government funds, exploration is crippled ! I've offered ideas for alternative sources of funding...you dismissed them.
I did not. I said that nothing I posted precluded non-government initiatives. You're the one limited options by arguing, on the basis of money, that public expenditures in this effort are somehow bad. I take a more flexible position, that there are reasonable arguments to be made that long-term benefits can be realized, from maintaining a unified, national approach to the effort. That allows more flexibility in the the motivation for short-term profit is not the primary driver. You are able to take a longer view, encompassing the potential for future discoveries that may provide a return many times over on your initial investment. It's too important to leave to "that's the breaks".
What a terribly pessimistic and limited view of the world! Please get a life here. Don't grow old hoping for some government-funded discovery of life on another planet!
Thanks. I do have a life, and it's not one that is limited to a vision of mankind crawling about the muck of this world, counting the pennies we think we've saved on our tax bill of today, but have in fact cost us our destiny as an adventurous and visionary people to are not bound by the worries of fattening our wallets in the here and now.
This is getting a bit long and no one is going to change their minds in this forum, so let me close it out below and then you can have the last word if you're so inclined.
The spirit of a nation and it's people, collectively, can be likened, in many ways, to the spirit of a person. There are those who spend their lives in pursuit of material comforts, who grub for every last penny to keep to themselves, who spend more effort and energy trying to keep things the way they are because they provide a false sense of security and some measure of material comfort. But it's a trap. When one ceases to reach beyond oneself, when one fears spending a few pennies today in the hopes of gaining much more later, the spirit of such a person is eroded and eventually withers away and dies. They maintain an outward appearance of health and strength, but their soul is dead. Often they find themselves denigrating and sneering at the dreams of others, because they have none of their own. They are likes ghosts pointing empty sleeves and laughing at the hopes of others around them, who do have a hope and vision of a better future. And when they die they leave nothing, no legacy of their time in this life other than a few tarnished and corroded pennies that they think they've saved, but leave nothing beyond that, because, in a sense, they've already died. And when they go to their graves there will be no one to pull the grass up over their heads, no one to mourn them, no one to give a damn.
But there is another kind of person, one who may sacrifice a little today in terms of material comfort, and perhaps live with a few less pennies in his bank account, but has a spirit that is alive and vital within them. And the kind of life and legacy they leave is one that lives on beyond their relatively few years on this Earth, one that leaves the seeds of the future, one wherein the petty concerns over a fraction of a penny here and there on a tax bill has insignificance compared with the treasures they gain for themselves and their offspring. And the legacy of those individuals is not graven only on stone over their native earth, but lives on, far away, woven into the fabric of other men's lives. It is a legacy and future with hope, not one bounded by petty concerns and the need to have a dollar or two more in our bank accounts when we die.
We can be a young nation again, if only we have the will. We can reach for and build a future that is perhaps not realizable in our own lives, and certainly may not have an immediate monetary reward. But it will leave a legacy of the American spirit that will not only be written in textbooks stored on some musty shelf in an archive, but is written in the stars.
Amazing! A voice of reason. How refreshing.
http://www.spacedaily.com/2004/040115221837.3qiqf5ry.html
The US space agency nominated retired admiral Craig Steidle to the job of associate administrator, with responsibilities as head of a new office, the Office of Exploration Systems -- the result of a reorganization mapped out at NASA headquarters in Washington.
http://www.space.com/news/bush_plan_faq_040115.html
Why not spend this money on social programs instead?
But industrial and medical technology keeps advancing by leaps and bounds, despite the fact we haven't sent people to the moon in the past 30 years.
Again, you completely failed to support your statement that "the space program is essential".
'Be careful to present your business plan to the right people. Don't waste your time with folks who have no intentiopn of investing in your company.'
--Jane Applegate
BTW, I'm not worried about increased taxes as long as George Bush is President. I'm not worried about someone taking more money from me personally. My concern is for proper use of federal funds. In case you haven't been reading Earth news, there is no money left in the U.S. treasury. It's all gone. It's in the red. Negative numbers. Big debt. Congress, and yes, even Bush, have spent the nation into debt in order to buy votes via more federal programs, commonly known as 'pork'. Some people say that the debt is so big, it no longer matters what expenditures are. Do you think there are no consequences for deficit spending ? When is the debt too big ? When should we begin paying the debt down ? How about now ? You are very generous in your willingness to spend other people's money, including that of future generations of Americans.
And even if there were a surplus, it should be returned to the taxpayers and/or be used for government necessities that have been neglected, such as border security, instead of "investing" in programs unrelated to government that just might "pay off".
I'm in the research business myself and I'm used to these arguments.
NOW we're getting somewhere. Are you a government employee ? Do you or your organization receive or seek government funding ? Do you lobby for government funds ?
Are you crazy?
Not in my opinion. But I'm crazy enough to answer all your questions.
Are you saying I volunteered to have a handicapped child?
You said you were raising a handicapped child. I'm saying you are doing so voluntarily. Other people less responsible and less capable than you have given up such children for adoption. In other words, the government did not force you into your commitment under penalty of imprisonment. In contrast, the government forces us all to involuntarily bear the burden of its spending, whether on necessities or on pork.
When one ceases to reach beyond oneself, when one fears spending a few pennies today in the hopes of gaining much more later, the spirit of such a person is eroded and eventually withers away and dies...Often they find themselves denigrating and sneering at the dreams of others, because they have none of their own... But there is another kind of person, one who may sacrifice a little today in terms of material comfort, and perhaps live with a few less pennies in his bank account, but has a spirit that is alive and vital within them. And the kind of life and legacy they leave is one that lives on beyond their relatively few years on this Earth, one that leaves the seeds of the future, one wherein the petty concerns over a fraction of a penny here and there on a tax bill has insignificance compared with the treasures they gain for themselves and their offspring. And the legacy of those individuals is not graven only on stone over their native earth, but lives on, far away, woven into the fabric of other men's lives. It is a legacy and future with hope...
I agree with all that. What makes you think I doubt the worthiness of exploration and research ? I love exploration and research...and adventure. Daily, I sacrifice today's material comfort in order to invest in my future, and not just financially but with time and effort as well. I invest in my family, church, learning, etc. There are an infinite number of worthy endevors out there. If you are so pumped up about space exploration, why not join with others who are voluntarily sponsoring it:
http://www.space-frontier.org/
Again, it's simply not the U.S. government's proper role to be adventurous with public funds that were entrusted to them for the purposes of governing, no more than it is your bosses' role to suddenly take a bite out of your wages to buy you something that he's certain would be "good for you". Once government began funding non-Constitutional activities, there is no end to it, and we have the mess we see in Washington today.
(The above sentence didn't count. You got the last word, if that's important...)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.