A Belligerent Rose Only a Bit Apologetic

AP.com ^ | 01/08/2004 | Ronald Blum

[newgeezer]

I wonder what would be sufficient contrition for the folks with all this venom.

But, it's not a matter of "sufficient contrition." Major League Baseball's Rule 21 is simple and clear. The prescribed penalty for breaking it is permanent ineligibility. The Rule and its penalty have always been posted in every MLB clubhouse. Rose knew them both, and broke the Rule. In doing so, he willingly accepted permanent ineligibility. (It's as if he drove off a cliff and is steadfastly and belligerently surprised that the miraculous hand of God didn't save him from certain death.)

No amount of contrition can change the simple facts, regardless of whether he's the bullpen catcher or the all-time hits leader.

[petercooper]

Rose is a fraud and a giant egomaniac. May he never get into the Hall of Fame or back into baseball.

[thesummerwind]

No amount of contrition can change the simple facts, regardless of whether he's the bullpen catcher or the all-time hits leader.

Totally agree here. I always considered him an over-rated, classless bum, and I knew him.

[thesummerwind]

To be honest on that play, and I'm NOT a fan of Rose.

Rose-Fosse play in '70 lives on in infamy........ With the approach of the annual All-Star game, the media likes to revisit noteworthy midsummer classics of the past. Probably the most memorable All-Star Game play occurred on July 14, 1970. The score was tied, 4-4, with two out in the bottom of the 12th inning. Hits by the Reds' Pete Rose and the Dodgers' Billy Grabarkewitz put runners on first and second. Then, the Cubs' Jim Hickman singled to center. Kansas City's Amos Otis hurriedly fielded the ball in shallow center and heaved it toward the plate as Rose barreled around third. Rose then bowled over Indians rookie catcher Ray Fosse to score the winning run and end the game. It was the eighth straight victory for the National League.

Over the years, a lot of people have put their own spin on the story. It was a dirty play by a dirty player, they say; Rose ruined Fosse's career in a meaningless game.

Let's review exactly what happened in the play. Rose is approaching home plate with the potential winning run. He starts to go into his patented head-first slide, but then he realizes something: Fosse, 3 inches taller, 20 pounds heavier, and covered with protective gear, has the plate blocked as he awaits the ball — which, incidentally, is against the rules. Rose can either (a) go face-first into Fosse's shin guards and get tagged out; (b) tip-toe around Fosse and get tagged out; or (c) go through him to win the game. Rose chooses "c," aborting his slide and laying out Fosse to end it. It was a clean play, a winning play, and neither player criticized the other then or now — in Fosse's words, it was "a couple of aggressive ballplayers doing their jobs."

Fosse (along with Indians pitcher Sam McDowell) had been Rose's houseguest the night before, talking baseball until 3 a.m. After the game, both players involved in the collision were hospitalized, but Fosse was released before Rose. Fosse was back in the lineup the first game after the break; Rose didn't play again until July 19, five days after the collision, and he didn't hit with authority for several weeks afterward (three extra-base hits in his next 85 at-bats, as compared to 58 in 564 the rest of the year).

It has been written that Fosse suffered a separated shoulder in the collision, but that it went undiagnosed. Fosse continued to hit for average (he finished the season at .307), but with diminished power — he had 16 homers before the break but two after. He played through the 1979 season, but never really approached his first-year numbers. Of course, that's true of a lot of hot-shot rookies.

As for the "meaninglessness" of the All-Star game, the original premise was "Let's pick the best players in each league, match them against each other, play for pride and glory, and see which league comes out on top." Somewhere over the past 25 years, it became "Let's find good players who don't want a three-day vacation, trot them out there for two or three innings each, encourage them to clown around, and play until they've had enough." Many people seem to prefer the latter; I don't. We'll see if the new rule — giving the winning league home-field advantage in the World Series — makes a difference.

Now, that's the REAL story. Gambling most likely had nothing to do with it.

[tcuoohjohn]

2008-- Yeah I knew that a number of Reds team mates were just shy of the Disabled list so I bet against the Reds.

[tcuoohjohn]

Right ,Pete...Blame your Mama. Mama made you bet on baseball and she is the fount of all your troubles. Let us hope your Mama isn't alive to read this.

[NotJustAnotherPrettyFace]

Occasionally contrite but repeatedly the defiant, belligerent spark plug fans love, Pete Rose blames his accusers and medical conditions for the problems that got him kicked out of baseball.

Now I'm REALLY convinced Rose is a Democrat. Typical - blame everyone else but yourself.

[NotJustAnotherPrettyFace]

Yeah, it's really apparent that Rose crossed that ethical line countless times. And that's just one more example.

[NYCVirago]

He also compares his compulsive gambling to the behavior of former President Clinton, actors Robert Downey Jr. and Winona Ryder, and blames former Reds manager Jack McKeon and general manager Jim Bowden for not giving Pete Rose Jr. enough of a chance when he played for Cincinnati in 1997.

IIRC, Pete Rose Jr. not only wasn't a very good player, but he was also a rather poignant figure -- it was pretty obvious he was in baseball to get his father's attention. And even then, his father still didn't give him much attention.

[NYCVirago]

Now I'm REALLY convinced Rose is a Democrat. Typical - blame everyone else but yourself.

FWIW, Jimmy Carter has been fairly vocal about wanting Rose in the HOF, and back in baseball. Figures.

[Lady Composer]

I am personally of the opinion that he should NOT EVER be allowed in the Hall of Fame.

I totally disagree with them but here is an editorial from what I thought was the conservative Pantagraph of Bloominton/Normal IL:

Pantagraph Editorial

Thursday, January 8, 2004
Let Rose in Hall of Fame despite lack of remorse

Pete Rose deserves to be in baseball's Hall of Fame, not because of his belated admission to betting on baseball as a manager but because of his record-setting career as a player.

For 14 years, Rose publicly denied betting on baseball. But now that he has a book to sell, he finally admits, "It's time to clear the slate." Yet we haven't heard any apologies to his accusers.

In 1989, still proclaiming his innocence, Rose accepted a "lifetime" ban from baseball, gambling that he would be reinstated later. So far, he's lost that bet. He is ineligible for the Hall of Fame as long as the ban is in place.

Rose's gambling and lying have tarnished his image. But those bad habits can't erase his career statistics, including numerous All-Star Game appearances, batting titles and the major league record for most career hits, surpassing Ty Cobb.

It's good to see Rose finally come clean, but it's distressing to see him continue to portray himself as a victim. His only remorse seems to be for getting caught.

"I should have had the opportunity to get help, but baseball had no fancy rehab for gamblers like they do for drug addicts," Rose writes in his book, "My Prison Without Bars."

Gambling can be an addiction, but Rose had an obligation to get help, not expect baseball to provide it.

He only bet on his team to win, as a manager of the Cincinnati Reds, and said it didn't affect his managerial decisions. But one has to wonder if, for example, Rose sometimes left a relief pitcher in too long to win a game on which he bet. Did he risk having that pitcher not be ready to pitch in the next game that was crucial to the team's season, but not crucial to Rose's betting?

Rose should not be allowed to coach or manage again. But barring him from the Hall of Fame hurts fans as well as Rose. It also hurts the integrity of baseball history to exclude such talent because of something that had nothing to do with his time as a player.

The truest words spoken by Rose came in an interview with ABC News in which he said of his admission, "I'm 14 years late."

But baseball shouldn't be as late in letting him take his rightful place in the Hall of Fame.

[BlueLancer]

I agree with your summation of the events that happened in that game. As a catcher, I have been hammered many times while blocking the plate. If you block the plate, you should expect to take the beating that will inevitably come your way. If you set yourself up properly (and get the ball in time), with all of that gear, it's the other guy who's going to end up wishing he hadn't tried. In 42 years of playing, I've given as good as I got.

The worst hits that I've ever taken as a catcher (in high school, Babe Ruth, and college baseball and in league softball) were in Church League games. I once had to take 18 months off to allow my left knee to heal before I could pay again. I was blocking home plate and the throw came in from the cutoff man high. Instead of just letting it go, I went up on my left leg to pull it down and the runner slammed into me while I was planted and extended.

Using the situation of this game to block Pete Rose from the HOF is an insult to a fine catcher and one who knew the risks in that position.

[Ghengis]

Then years later the betting scandal broke. It all became clear to me (though this is still just my allegation). Rose made an unnecessary play, ending a popular player's career, in an exhibition game (supposed to be fun) BECAUSE HE HAD BET ON THE GAME.

Rose went through Fosse to win the game because that is the only way he played the game. As was pointed out in the other post, replays show Rose started a headfirst slide and then stayed on his feet when he saw Fosse had the plate blocked.

[thesummerwind]

I went up on my left leg to pull it down and the runner slammed into me while I was planted and extended.

God, that hurts just envisioning it! BTW, I was a centerfielder. I used to envy you catchers in a wasy, you were always in the very middle of the game.

I was on third base , we had the bases loaded, no outs in a baseball game once at Pitt. There was a weak grounder to third, I was coming home to break up a possible double play (third base, to home, back to first base). So I came in standing up ran into this huge catcher, fell in a heap in the dirt at his feet, and he finished the double play by throwing to first. He hardly even flinched. Every time I think of it 35 years later, it's funny, but not that night! Ha!

[thesummerwind]

Yeah I knew that a number of Reds team mates were just shy of the Disabled list so I bet against the Reds.

LOL!

[tcuoohjohn]

Wow...Rose is quite a guy. Blames his dead mother for his problems. A real class act..

[MEG33]

He told about gambling on his team because he wants back into baseball he just told O'Reilly.

He simply cannot say "I did it.I was wrong.I was too ashamed to admit it."He told the"truth" because he wants back into baseball.

He doesn't seem to "get" the arrogance and lack of contrition that conveys.

[BenLurkin]

"Gambling most likely had nothing to do with it."

Maybe someday we'll know for sure one way or the other. Until then, in my mind the burden is on Rose to prove otherwise.