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W's Live Speech Thread
Fox News | 1-7-04 | my favorite headache

Posted on 01/07/2004 11:29:59 AM PST by My Favorite Headache

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To: No.6
All in all I have not made up my mind to hate or to love this proposal. My political sense tells me I shouldn't bother as it'll not pass this year. If the political strateg(er)y is right, the House passes something the Senate Dems and Rinos can't stand, and what's left is no bill but "Democrats are against Hispanics" as a campaign issue.

Wrong. The Dems will say that the bill doesn't go far enough and that we should grant the 15 million "undocumented" workers immediate citizenship. The GOP can never outbid the Left. They just move the goal posts further to the Left.

1,541 posted on 01/08/2004 8:06:59 AM PST by kabar
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To: Dane
Uh Stuie,

It's Stuart.

considering your rhetoric

It's called an opinion.

you were not part of the coalition that helped elect Schwareneggar.

What does one have to do with the other? Is this a straw man technique usually attempted by Democrats?

Judging by your rhetoric you are McClintockbot, IMO.

What is a "McClintockbot"? How old are you? Is this your somewhat less than adult way of asking if I voted for Tom McClintock?

If so, the answer is no, so your HO isn't an accurate one.

It happens.

1,542 posted on 01/08/2004 8:30:03 AM PST by Stu Cohen
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To: Texaggie79
unless of course such jobs are sent overseas or H1b'ed.
1,543 posted on 01/08/2004 8:31:31 AM PST by KantianBurke (Don't Tread on Me)
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To: SONbrad
So you despise Reagan as well??? Yes or no?

Do you still beat your wife? Yes or no?

I am stunned that in 2004, people over the age of 12 still use that "yes or no" tactic.

Reagan's former immigration policy was hideous, and even he admitted as much. So I guess you can say I agree with President Reagan that parts of his immigration policy was despicable.

1,544 posted on 01/08/2004 8:36:25 AM PST by Stu Cohen
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To: tubavil
I understand your frustration tubavil. My biggest fear is the Mexico border will NOT BE SEALED in conjunction with what Bush is about to do with the amnesty thing (that's what it is even if Bush doesn't want to call it that). So if the border is not sealed, then you have the 10-12 million plus that are here now becoming de facto citizens. Then you have an additional 10-12 million illegals coming right in effectively doubling the number we currently have. The REAL problems: (a) American companies want labor at less than the going rate and are getting it with the illegals, (b) to gov't is NOT willing to seal the border. Unless the gov't is willing to truly solve both (a) and (b) then the problem will never be solved. Big companies are using illegals and getting away with it...I've seen it first hand! The gov't is pandering to them by not closing the border. It really sucks... If Bush's amnesty program doesn't seal the border this will be a huge disaster.
1,545 posted on 01/08/2004 8:38:09 AM PST by LinuxRocks
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To: kabar
Wrong. The Dems will say that the bill doesn't go far enough and that we should grant the 15 million "undocumented" workers immediate citizenship.

Of course they will. But that annoys the majority of Hispanic Americans as well as Caucasians when they do that. The Dems have been doing a good job of showing their contempt for minorities lately.

Anyway that's what I'm saying: the House will toughen the proposal and the Senate Dems will reject it. The traditional media will bleat predictably along the lines you laid out but if people were as swayed by the media as some think, the Dems would still have the House, Senate, and Presidency in their hands.

1,546 posted on 01/08/2004 9:07:09 AM PST by No.6
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To: Mad_Tom_Rackham
I agree the policy is fine as a starting point. If nothing else its announcement has provoked a discussion and that is good. Something needs to be done to legitimate the millions already here who came in under failed and corrupt immigration policies of the past especially those made under Democratic administrations.

The US needs to control its borders aboslutely - no question. We are fighting a war against Islamic terrorism and many jihadists are entering through the borders regions. The focus should be on prevention of any more coming in and checking those who are already here. How do you check them? By requiring them to sign up for temporary work permits.

1,547 posted on 01/08/2004 9:17:06 AM PST by eleni121
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To: Stu Cohen
So you DID vilify Reagan for his blanket amnesty or you did not? It's a simple question.

I guess when the answer to a question will expose you for the hypocrite that you are, you can always try to deflect that reality by trying a little name-calling. Shows who the 12 year old is I guess.

Anyway, you either did or didn't, and you then either supported Reagan afterward or you did not. Which is it?
1,548 posted on 01/08/2004 9:22:00 AM PST by SONbrad
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To: Mad_Tom_Rackham

Noooooooooooooooooooooo!

My God! They're ordering lattes at Starbucks!

Mexicans are all over the neighborhood! It's all Bush's fault. He let them in! Oh my God, they're in my pool!

Good Heavens! The 405 is jammed with wall to wall Low-Riders with fuzzy dice!

We're all going to Die, and it's all Bush's fault!

Be Seeing You,

Chris

1,549 posted on 01/08/2004 9:43:17 AM PST by section9 (Major Kusanagi says, "Click on my pic and read my blog, or eat lead!")
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To: KantianBurke
If such jobs are "sent over seas" then those that lost their jobs need to find high skilled jobs that are more efficient when performed over here.
1,550 posted on 01/08/2004 9:55:37 AM PST by Texaggie79 (Did I just say that?)
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To: BrooklynGOP
And what do you know about it, Ethiopian? :-P
1,551 posted on 01/08/2004 9:56:42 AM PST by Texaggie79 (Did I just say that?)
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To: prisoner6
Well said amigo. Ugh...bad choice of words. Sorry.Nevermind.
1,552 posted on 01/08/2004 9:57:55 AM PST by My Favorite Headache (I Stand With Alex Lifeson)
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To: LinuxRocks
"So if the border is not sealed, then you have the 10-12 million plus that are here now becoming de facto citizens. Then you have an additional 10-12 million illegals coming right in effectively doubling the number we currently have."

If the border is currently wide open, why don't we already have the 25 million illegals you envision? Indeed, why don't we have 50, 75, 100 million illegals? Answer: Because just like everything else humans do, illegal immigration is driven by the laws of economics, specifically the law of supply and demand.

Presently, employers have roughly 10 million positions they need filled so badly they are willing to risk legal penalties to fill them. With the adoption of a guest worker program, those employers will be able to fill those positions without legal risk. At that point, the only way 10 million more illegal job slots will open is if the economy doubles in size.

Now, you can argue that the guest worker program will lead to more guest workers, since by lowering the cost associated with hiring a Mexican citizen many employers who would otherwise have left the work go undone rather than risk hiring an illegal will now have a risk-free course to pursue. That's definitely true. But that by definition won't be illegal immigration, so sealing the border is irrelevant to that question. In fact, the net result of this will absolutely be a significant drop in illegal immigration, at which point our existing border patrol resources (increased some 10% already by Bush) will have a much easier time sealing the border against real criminals—you know, the ones who want to kill you as opposed to the ones who just want to mow your lawn.

1,553 posted on 01/08/2004 10:00:32 AM PST by Fabozz
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To: Texaggie79
Whatever high skilled jobs that can be taught here, can be taught and later utilized for much less somewhere else. White collar workers will have their jobs either sent out or their wages slashed. Those unlucky enough to be unemployed won't be able to turn to low skilled labor thanks to the millions that are and will be coming in due comeptition for rock bottom wages. There IS the possibility of working for the government. Thanks to our current President there's plenty of opportunities and expansion going on in that sector.
1,554 posted on 01/08/2004 10:02:09 AM PST by KantianBurke (Don't Tread on Me)
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To: section9
Just a heads up...have you seen the Tancredo version of the guest worker bill? Check it out, it's awsome.
1,555 posted on 01/08/2004 10:18:16 AM PST by ravingnutter
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To: section9
LOL!

Great post! It says it all about some of the over-reaction going on here! Thanks!
1,556 posted on 01/08/2004 10:29:08 AM PST by SONbrad
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To: Fabozz
Fabozz, I enjoyed reading your post! It was very well thought out and I agree with many of the points you make. I submit these follow-up comments and I welcome your feedback:

I agree that illegal immigration is driven by the laws of economics - supply and demand. In fact I base my claims partly on supply and demand principle. In order for the gov't to make the guest workers legit, they will have to be paid the minimum wage. If this assertion holds true, then there will STILL be a demand for the illegal immigrants. The illegal immigrants are outside the boundaries of the law, therefore they are paid less than the going rate. The companies that are currently paying LESS than the going rate for the illegals that they employ will not want to pay these same people the minimum wage or higher. If the amnesty program attempts to allow companies to pay less for the guest workers then it will be sued into oblivion by labor unions. So my assertion is that the guest worker program will NOT change the current level of demand for illegal workers.

1,557 posted on 01/08/2004 10:30:16 AM PST by LinuxRocks
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To: KantianBurke
You are right. We will just have a bunch of highly skilled workers all without jobs. We will lose our middle class. Then all the products the middle class buy will no longer be sold. Then all the corps won't have the money to hire in India....

Yeah, sure, that'll happen....
1,558 posted on 01/08/2004 10:30:36 AM PST by Texaggie79 (Did I just say that?)
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To: Miss Marple
You are incorrect. ALL undocumented workers will have to make application. They are NOT grandfathered in. If they do not have a permanent job, they have to go home.

Please read my comment again. My use of “grandfathered” was in reference to the jobs themselves, not the immigrants. While the burden of proof, filing fee and paperwork will fall to the illegal immigrant, according to the official press release posted on the official White House website, employers who currently employ illegal immigrants won’t even have to bother advertising the job that the illegal immigrant currently holds – it will be “assumed” that no American wants the job, simply by virtue of the fact that an illegal immigrant now holds it.

From “Background Briefing by Conference Call on Immigration Policy” :

Q So an employer won't have to fear that they'll also have to step forward and show that their worker is undocumented. Will they have to register that undocumented worker? Is that the idea?

SENIOR ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL: The employer will sponsor the undocumented worker, yes. But if you're asking the question as to whether the person needs to say, okay, well, here's Mary, and she's in this spot, do we need to hold on Mary and look for some American to fill that position, the answer is, no. We assume that by virtue of Mary's employment, that marketplace test, if you will, has already been met.

Please read the document; it’s extremely interesting, for lack of a more expressive (and possibly censored) description.

1,559 posted on 01/08/2004 11:07:27 AM PST by browardchad
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To: Miss Marple
If they do not have a permanent job, they have to go home.

I am smiling at statements like this. I'm sorry if I appear insensitive to such statements but such statements make me laugh at the absurdity. When will people finally understand that lawbreakers don't care what we think or say. They only understand physical force.

1,560 posted on 01/08/2004 11:49:02 AM PST by Hostage
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