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Bye Bye Pistols
Strategy Page ^ | 1/5/04 | Mohney

Posted on 01/05/2004 6:34:12 AM PST by pabianice

PDWs Replacing Pistols

January 5, 2004: Bye Bye Beretta, Hello PDW? The 9mm pistol cartridge has been in use for over 100 years by militaries and civilian law enforcement, but renewed efforts are underway both in the U.S. and European military establishments to field a replacement round, and a new type of weapon to fire it. The new weapon has been dubbed the Personal Defense Weapon (PDW) by NATO. This spring, the Marine Corps Warfighting Lab at Quantico, Virginia will be holding an evaluation between PDW contenders from FN Herstal and Hecker & Koch (H&K) in order to find a replacement for the "aging" Beretta 9mm pistol.

Both NATO and the U.S. military are seeking a more effective pistol round able to penetrate body armor. For non-infantry personnel, especially those traveling in cramped quarters such as aircraft and armored vehicles, the PDW is expected to be a better and more affordable solution than either pistol-caliber submachine guns or folding-stock assault rifles. Infantry soldiers operating in urban environments could also benefit from a compact design. A pistol is desired for cost and political reasons, with a handgun being perceived as less threatening during police and peacekeeping operating.

U.S. Special Forces has never been happy with the 9mm's pistol's stopping power, even in the very limited scenarios, such as terrorist hostage rescue, where they can legally use hollow-point ammunition for increased effectiveness. SOCOM went back to the .45 round (perhaps legitimized is a better term, since operators were still toting updated versions of the classic M1911s even after the 9mm came into regular Army service in the mid-80s) with the HK Mark23 Mod 0 SOCOM "offensive" handgun weapons system.

Civilian law enforcement has also sought a more powerful round than the 9mm since the '80's, beginning with the FBI's adoption of the 10mm (.40 caliber) round in the early '90s, followed by the emergence of the more popular .40 caliber S&W cartridge. Between terrorists, drug dealers, and bank robbers showing up with automatic weapons and body armor, a more effective round is much desired.

FN's PDW entry, the P90, uses the SS190 5.7 x28mm round capable of penetrating 48 plies of Kevlar at distances of 200 meters. The P90 is 19.7 inches long and weighs in at 6.6 pounds, including a see-through magazine holding 50 rounds of ammunition. First introduced in 1991, the P90 has been adapted by in limited numbers by several small nations as well as appearing as a prop in movies and the "Stargate SG-1" television series. Using the same ammunition, FN's Five-seveN pistol retains the same capability of penetrating body armor.

H&K's MP7 PDW was introduced in 1999 and uses 4.6 x 30mm ammunition ( designed to penetrate a NATO CRISAT target consisting of a titanium plant and 20 layers of Kevlar intended to represent Soviet/Russian-style body armor.) With a 20 round clip, the weapons weighs only 3.7 pounds and measures 14.9 inches with the buttstock retracted. A 40 round magazine is also available. The MP7 can be fired with either one or two hands or from the shoulder. The weapon was adapted by Germany's KSK special operations unit in 2002 and first prototypes of an accompanying handgun, dubbed the Ultimate Combat Pistol (UCP), were announced at the end of November 2003.

Both FN and H&K PDW families are designed to be easily broken down without tools for field cleaning, have Picatinny rails for mounting of lasers and light and can be outfitted with silencers. They also both come with integrated optical sights.

NATO has been trying to adapt a PDW for years and was on the verge of adapting the 5.7mm ammunition in 2002, in part due to the availability of the FN 5.7mm handgun, but the selection procedure became gridlocked and could not reach a formal decision. Regardless, Germany will be buying a H&K solution and has a stated need for 6,000 MP7s in 2004 and 14,000 UCPs across the armed forces. It is likely Germany's civilian anti-terrorist force, GSG-9, will also select the new weapon in 2004. Other PDW shoppers in the coming year include the UK Ministry of Defense Police and the Singapore Police Force.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; heckerkoch; hecklerkoch; hk
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As seen on "Stargate SG-1"...

FN P90


1 posted on 01/05/2004 6:34:12 AM PST by pabianice
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2 posted on 01/05/2004 6:35:28 AM PST by Support Free Republic (Happy New Year)
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To: *bang_list
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
3 posted on 01/05/2004 6:38:29 AM PST by Joe Brower ("If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever." - G. Orwell)
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To: pabianice
Very simple, bring back the .45ACP
4 posted on 01/05/2004 6:42:27 AM PST by sticker
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To: pabianice
"As seen on "Stargate SG-1"... "

My preferred personal defense weapon is a SHEVA named "Bun-bun" (see John Ringo's book "Hell's Faire").

5 posted on 01/05/2004 6:46:36 AM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: pabianice
With a 20 round clip

Magazine. Magazine. Magazine.

Repeat after me. "Magazine."

(feels like I'm banging my head against a wall.)

6 posted on 01/05/2004 6:48:49 AM PST by Eris
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To: pabianice
The FN-P90 looks like something designed by Moses Browning on an acid trip.
7 posted on 01/05/2004 6:49:50 AM PST by The Great RJ
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To: pabianice
Just so long as I can hold it over my head from behind hard cover while I spray and pray.
8 posted on 01/05/2004 6:53:35 AM PST by BenLurkin (Socialism is Slavery)
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To: pabianice
bump
9 posted on 01/05/2004 6:54:18 AM PST by RippleFire
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To: Wonder Warthog
A simple strap-on for the right arm, with the barrel pointed over the closed fist, the trigger located where a squeeze of the palm can fire it, and the weapon raised to eye level where a laser targeting light can pinpoint the objective. The technology has not yet been solved, but an electromotive propulsion system, accelerating the missile (probably not much thicker than a sewing needle) up to Mach 10 or so, would be a most deadly anti-personnel sniping device.
10 posted on 01/05/2004 6:55:48 AM PST by alloysteel
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To: Eris
You ARE banging your head against a wall.

Magazine magazine magazine.

11 posted on 01/05/2004 6:56:05 AM PST by .38sw
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To: pabianice
Doesn't matter what it looks like. Doesn't matter how well it works. Doesn't matter if you can afford one or not. You won't be allowed to have one. The government has decreed that the peasants (that's you and me) won't be allowed to have them. Only the retainers of the nobility (otherwise known as JBT's) will be allowed.

The leftist feces otherwise known as "democrats" and their official propaganda arm known as "the media" will be wringing their hands about "cop killer bullets" and "machine guns" if the very thought of allowing ordinary citizens is ever expressed.

12 posted on 01/05/2004 6:59:26 AM PST by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy, and Bush is no conservative)
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To: pabianice
"The P90 is 19.7 inches long and weighs in at 6.6 pounds"

why is this better than a bull pup rifle?
13 posted on 01/05/2004 7:04:45 AM PST by reed_inthe_wind (That Hillary really knows how to internationalize my MOJO.)
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: pabianice
Won't replace pistols, they are sub-machine guns. The MP7 PDW is 13+ inches overall length and the P90 is 19+ inches overall length. Now the Five-seveN could replace the Beretta, it is a true pistol.
15 posted on 01/05/2004 7:14:43 AM PST by looscnnn ("Live free or die; death is not the worst of evils" Gen. John Stark 1809)
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To: alloysteel
"A simple strap-on for the right arm, with the barrel pointed over the closed fist, the trigger located where a squeeze of the palm can fire it..."

That's fine, but handshakes would be out of the question.
16 posted on 01/05/2004 7:18:52 AM PST by NYFriend
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To: pabianice
I bet a CZ 52 loaded with hot teflon coated "cop killer" bullets would do the penetration.

According to the American Rifleman, the pistol will withstand very hot loadings.

17 posted on 01/05/2004 7:24:42 AM PST by yarddog
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To: Eris
Perhaps bullet storage device?
18 posted on 01/05/2004 7:32:00 AM PST by razorback-bert
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To: sticker
Very simple, bring back the .45ACP

Yep, at least for use on non-Kevlar-wearing al-Qaeda types. Heck, that's what the 1911 was designed for.

I'm sure the 5.7mm round is great for work against body armor, but if 9mm FMJ has overpenetration issues, I'm sure 5.7 is worse.

19 posted on 01/05/2004 7:35:49 AM PST by AngryJawa (All I want for Christmas comes in .45 Auto)
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To: The Great RJ
The FN-P90 looks like something designed by Moses Browning on an acid trip.

Worse: it looks french!

20 posted on 01/05/2004 7:46:09 AM PST by Grut
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