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To: Joe Hadenuf
I am not planning on being involved in the debate. However, I do think it is fair to spell out my position so that no one thinks I have some hidden agenda.

I am against illegal immigration. I do not think amnesty works. I also do not think we have the resources to find and deport all of the illegals we have right now. I also think that if we did allocate the resources to find and deport all illegals, the effort would cause such an uproar amongst civil libertarians (since it would invariably involve investigating many more people than just illegals) would fracture the political right. I think the answer is to improve border security to minimize the flow of illegals into the country, to reduce the welfare state so that those who do get through will be those who are industrious and not looking for a free ride, and over time with the inflow of illegals stemmed the illegal population would shrink as generations age and die. I am for cutting back on H1B visas during times of high unemployment, and am ambivalent about them in times of low unemployment. Immigration does not bother me in the least. I like a variety of cultures, as long as all of them are putting America first. I oppose illegal immigration. However, it is not my top issue, nor is it in my top five issues.

80 posted on 01/05/2004 4:47:59 AM PST by Lead Moderator
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To: Lead Moderator; Happy2BMe
I am against illegal immigration. I do not think amnesty works. I also do not think we have the resources to find and deport all of the illegals we have right now. I also think that if we did allocate the resources to find and deport all illegals, the effort would cause such an uproar amongst civil libertarians (since it would invariably involve investigating many more people than just illegals) would fracture the political right.

Dealing with Illegals doesn't have to be the enormous burden on resources many imagine, not would it have to infringe on civil liberties.

I've posted this on a few threads, but I keep getting requests:

This problem is no harder to solve than wanting to solve it. We can get rid of Illegals rather effectively, by rolling up our sleeves and getting the Illegals to get rid of themselves.

The first order of business, of course, is to enforce existing laws on the books against Illegals and those who employ them. Also, politicians must be held to account when they pander otherwise.

Then...

  • 1: Eliminate all mention of Section 245(i), even if expired, from the US Immigration and Naturalization Code. No more Amnesty, ever.

  • 2: Get legislation through Congress that would enable States to deny goodies to Illegals, a la Prop #187.

  • 3: Outlaw Mexican matricula consular IDs, and kick banks accepting them out of the FDIC. Legal depositors will withdraw from recalcitrant banks.

  • 4: Beef up Border Security with manpower, resources, and a Volunteer Reserve, if necessary. No troops, and no messing with posse comitatus, this should be a civilian effort.

  • 5: Beef up the immigration courts and set deportation hearings for two weeks after apprehension, with no bail.

  • 6: Run sting operations at day laborer sites.

  • 7: Establish two-way communication between the IRS and Border Security, and start apprehending and deporting Illegals using false SS numbers (no, the current overhyped voluntary program doesn't count).

  • 8: Seize the assets of businesses knowingly hiring Illegals under the RICO Act, as they are ongoing criminal enterprises. Prosecute executives who knowingly hire Illegals.

  • 9: Compile biometric information on Illegals, and declare that they will be permanently ineligible for immigration and citizenship.

  • 10: If the United States declares that the above proposals against Illegals will be diligently enforced after a certain date, many Illegals will leave beforehand, and a relatively small number of well-publicized cases of enforcement throughout the Lower 48 will result in millions of Illegals deporting themselves.

  • 11: End the busting of immigration caps by limiting family reunification to spouses and dependent children, and counting them against the caps when they are brought in. Require all future immigrants to declare their future intent to bring in family upon arrival. This way, families can immigrate in a controlled, orderly fashion without the current deceptions being used against the American public. We must have truth in immigration.

  • 12: Outlaw anchor babies, and give the option to the Illegal parent of taking the child with them upon deportation, or putting them up for adoption.

  • 13: Outlaw bilingual ballots, and resume the English-speaking requirements for citizenship.

  • 14: Establish English skills as a prerequisite for future immigrants. Let's start admitting folks who will hit the ground running toward assimilation.

  • 15: Shut off new immigration to nations that offer dual citizenship. Disqualify current immigrants from those nations from future American citizenship.

  • 16: Make Mexico and Central America our cheap import sources of choice with tariffs on manufacturing from other sources, especially China.

  • 17: In return, Mexico must open up to American investment by allowing the sale of real estate to us and guaranteeing property our rights. Getting Mexico to fix its economy is crucial.

  • 18: Establish a guest worker program where an initial bond is posted by the Illegal and his employer, say $500 each, with more withheld from the Illegal's earning, as security for his departure from the US by the specified date. Guest worker visas must be applied for in the workers' countries of origin, and participants are only eligible to be employed by their sponsoring employer. Violation of these terms will render the worker ineligible for any future visas or residence in the US. Any guest worker program can only come after anti-Illegal measures are in place. Handshake promises of future diligence will not be trusted from any politician of either party, including President Bush.

The list above is by no means comprehensive, and can be adopted piecemeal or in a single package. That said, incrementalism is probably going to be the way to go, especially politically.

These measures would provide a little carrot and lots of stick for Illegals already here to get themselves out. Some of them will need to be tested in the courts, which is another reason to adopt them piecemeal, so that an injunction against omnibus legislation can't stall the whole effort.

We ought to be looking initially at easy, politically safe legislation, like the new accounting for family reunification, Border Security/IRS cooperation, English speaking citizenship requirements, and a few others. Our politicians are a trembling, timid bunch, and need to gain a little self-confidence before they'll tackle more difficult issues.

Note a few things that aren't on my list: troops or walls on the border. I think they are a futile diversion from cost effective solutions. The best possible wall at the border is to let foreigners know that we respect our sovereignty, and they had best do the same.

Note that their are no house to house searches.

Note also that I don't call for an immigration moratorium, though others may. I think their position is within the respectable mainstream of a dialogue about immigration, and while it's possible that I might change my mind later, but I am not currently persuaded that an outright moratorium is or will be necessary.

The main problem is multimillion-strong mass of Illegals, and the secondary problem is how we currently select legal immigrants for rapid assimilation into American society. I believe my proposals adequately address both situations, but there is certainly room for debate on the back end.

Note also that I have a guest worker program that is actually honest and responsible, and not an Amnesty by another name. My program would ensure that law-abiding foreigners are background-checked before entry, rather than rewarding lawbreaking Illegals after the fact.

All of the above could be adopted while allowing politicians so-inclined to chant the "compassionate conservatism" mantra.

A few final thoughts...

My proposals will cost money and require an expansion of the federal government in certain areas. However, this expense and expansion is all well within the legitimate, Constitutional responsibilities of the federal government. There will be a greater expense initially, as we ramp up to deal with the backlog of Illegals, but a number of my proposals are at least partially self-funding. Also, success in these endeavors will eventually reduce the need for them, and as many Illegals would leave on their own.

In contrast, there would be also be an increased expense and expansion of the government if there is an Amnesty, as checking backgrounds and processing 8 to 12 million Illegals wouldn't be cheap. However, such increases and expansions would only serve to reward the lawlessness of Illegals and the cowardice of politicians, thereby encouraging more of the same in both, unless there were also enforcement proposals like mine in effect for the American Interior.

But, if we strengthened and enforced our laws consistently within our borders, then we don't need the phantom solution of Amnesty anyway.


89 posted on 01/05/2004 5:24:10 AM PST by Sabertooth (Have a Happy New Year, Freepers)
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To: Lead Moderator
Immigration does not bother me in the least.

This sums it up very clearly. Say no more...

110 posted on 01/05/2004 8:10:21 AM PST by Joe Hadenuf (I failed anger management class, they decided to give me a passing grade anyway)
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To: Lead Moderator
"I oppose illegal immigration. However, it is not my top issue, nor is it in my top five issues."

You haven't listed your top five issues, but would it be safe to assume that your sympathies lie on the Conservative side of those issues?

How could anyone imagine that Conservatism will prevail, if roughly 2 million new future (or in many cases immediate) Liberal/Leftist voters are added every year to the 'Legions of the Left' that are already here via out-of-control, massive, legal and illegal immigration?

How does one explain what happened to 'B-1' Bob Dornan in California without factoring in the negative impact of the 'illegal alien' vote?

Were Dornan's positions too Conservative for his constituency before Sanchez, his opponent, over-ran his district with her Liberal/Leftist, illegal alien hordes?

This is happening all over the country, now. There are many of us that are sincerely perturbed by this administration and Congress merely turning a blind eye to the influx of so many Leftist/Socialist/Marxists legally and illegally, so rapidly for reasons of political convenience.

The Right simply doesn't have the capability to win the hearts and minds of so many when they enter in numbers vast enough to simply vote Left, as they are automatically predisposed to do, and with their Leftist vote, vote themselves access to everyone else's wallet or purse before they even learn English.

This is why there are many of us that perceive out-of-control, legal and illegal immigration to be the linch pin of all other Conservative issues.

If your top five issues are in my top ten, rest assured that they will soon be relegated to social obscurity by this influx of 3rd-world, Leftist/Socialist/Marxist, future voters.

The illegal aliens already here need to be encouraged to deport themselves to their home countries. They are not needed, at all.

Anything else is not a solution, it's just a recipe for further failure.

At least, Conservatives will see it as a failure, Liberals will be dancing in the streets. ;^)

111 posted on 01/05/2004 8:12:20 AM PST by 4Freedom (America is no longer the 'Land of Opportunity', it's the 'Land of Illegal Alien Opportunists'!!!)
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