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To: Alouette
Ok, you may not teach your kids that; but based on the massive articles flowing every week, it's clear kids are not being taught to "love our enemy".

It's not morally wrong to love your family and want to protect them. It's morally wrong to do that even at the expense of what is right. In short, that's tribalism. Let me be clear; Arabs are indeed a primitive "honor and shame" tribalistic group. But, I'm not sold on the idea they are intrinsically worse than, say, the Khmer Rouge.

"... trying to avoid describing the followers of Islam in the same way. "

I am dismayed and revolted by the actions of the fanatics among the followers of Islam. I'm dismayed more so to see you believe I would think to downplay it, and instead make it seem the Jews are MORE tribalistic than the Arabs. That would be Anti-Semitism indeed.

No, what I see missing is compassion for those Arabs are unwillingly forced to act a role that they want no part of. You know those huge shows the North Korean dictator puts on, where it seems half the population is dancing in unison in the square? How many of those folks truely believe in "beloved" Kim? How many of them have a choice in the matter? That's what I see throughout much of the Arab world, including Palestine. Only, the dancing, if any, is not synchronized.

I know about the doctored maps, the official policies of ignoring the "Zionist" entity. I know about the "pigs and monkeys". I also know about other cruelities inflicted as well. But that is not what has my attention - it's what is missing that is scary.

Where do you think the idea of fighting for freedom comes from? Do you not see the threat to Israel itself if Americans come to return to the notion of the pre-eminence of blood ties? Most Americans are not Jewish, but the Osamas of the world are doing there level best to make us believe we ARE. Once that happens, then it really is US against THEM, the Judeo-Crusader Alliance against the "good" guys. It fulfills their belief it's been a blood feud all along. I don't want that outcome.

Why we're in IRAQ: Bush said it best in the "Whitehall, 3 Pillars" speech. Those words work fine for me. But, I don't fail to notice we responded to the military implications of 9-11. Osama sent all Americans a letter, via the internet. I have read it. One of the premier motivating facts behind all the Al Queda attacks was the outrage over huge new military bases in Saudi Arabia. You are aware of what has happened to them, since 9-11, yes? Have we thus REWARDED terrorism?

I have mixed feelings about IRAQ. I have never been so proud our President or our Military. If we truely follow through on the 3 pillars, then the American hope is not dead. My guess is this: we won't screw up the area as badly as the British screwed up the Mandate post WWI.

9-11 was directly connected to that, and American soldiers are now killing and dying because of it. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that Islam must be reformed, that the Arab understanding of the idea of freedom has to be planted and nutured. And that is never going to happen without the help of the Israelies. Because it is the Jews, and Christians, that did midwife (not by choice) Islam. To continue to abandon spiritual bastards now is to invite more of what we saw in 9-11.


In the USA Today, shortly after 9-11, a letter writer lamented that now that terrorism had come to our shores, "we are all Israelies now". I hope not - accepting routine terrorist attacks on our soil sounds incredibly unAmerican to me. Building a "fence" festooned with military pill boxes isn't going to work - but Israel seems to believe it sets a "morally equivalent" good example that rest of the world should feel free to emulate, or at the least accept. I hope we never buy into that kind of thinking, that kind of surrender. I hope we never follow that kind of example.

Americans are raised to believe we will win; not because our "tribe" is morally better. But because God will favor us if we choose to defend what is right, even at the expense of our tribal roots. Israel seems to currently see survival as the highest good, and hate is justifiable if need be - that is why I equated them. I believe war, unbelievable war will be the outcome if America chooses to follow that example, chooses to become a nation of "survivors".

Finally, do not be so quick to assume I have not experienced evil. To state anything about my refusal to "recognize evil" is to imply your sense of judgement, discernment, is superior to mine. It leaves no room for you to be in error. I would never do the same in regards to what you or your loved ones may have suffered. Evil at its worst is indifference and evil is live spelled backwards. I have experienced, and recognize, both.

Israel will be getting more and more attention of average Americans like myself...the Osamas will see to it....and we need to know more about what it means to live. Israel is destined to figure out how to take the lead in that matter; this problem will not just "go away".

(Boy oh boy this kind of heavy writing is tiring!! I'm looking forward to the next round of playoff games.)

And thank you for answering my question. I appreciate your willingness to spend your time on this. You are the only one who has answered me directly.
61 posted on 01/05/2004 7:37:20 PM PST by gobucks (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/classics/students/Ribeiro/laocoon)
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To: gobucks
Israel seems to currently see survival as the highest good, and hate is justifiable if need be - that is why I equated them.

Nowhere do Israelis claim that it is necessary to hate. You are probably not aware of Golda Meir's famous quote, "We believe there will be peace when the Arabs love their own children more than they hate the Jews."

Yes, I do happen to believe that one's own survival takes precedence. The Israelis cannot afford to take your advice of touch-feely-warm-fuzzy-kumbaya "love thine enemy". Been there, done that. Even Jesus advised his followers to "sell his cloak to buy a sword" if need be.

Americans are raised to believe we will win; not because our "tribe" is morally better.

Americans are taught to believe that we will prevail; not because our "tribe" is better but because our SOCIETY and FORM OF GOVERNMENT is SUPERIOR. That's not "racism" and it is not this thing you call "tribalism" either.

Your finding evil "tribalism" in everything you don't agree with reminds me of this Ayn Rand cultist I used to know, pigeonholing everything into "good" and "evil" slots of "STATISM!" "COLLECTIVISM!" "OBJECTIVISM!" force-fitting every situation into these prefab cubbyholes.

what I see missing is compassion for those Arabs are unwillingly forced to act a role that they want no part of. You know those huge shows the North Korean dictator puts on, where it seems half the population is dancing in unison in the square?

Did we have compassion for those Germans who were unwilling forced to act a role they wanted no part of. You know those huge shows that Hitler put on, where it seemed half the population was dancing in unison in the square?

Yes, we did show compassion to those Germans, but not until AFTER we defeated them in an all-out war.

I'm finished with this "tribalism" debate. There are worse things for you to get all outraged about. Loving your enemy won't stop him from killing you, and sometimes you have to go to war to destroy evil--you can't "love bomb" it to death.

A time to tear, and a time to mend,
A time to be silent, and a time to speak out,
A time to love, and a time to hate,
A time for war, and a time for peace.
Ecclesiastes 3:7-8

62 posted on 01/05/2004 8:04:41 PM PST by Alouette (Proud parent of an IDF recruit!)
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