[logan]

It's why the end of corporal punishment has inevitably led to this.

Whoa buddy; so you really think bringing back the paddle is the solution to the problems of modern education? I can't go there with you. Respect and consensus trumps pain and force every time.

As for rebelliousness, you're right that it's not an innate human quality in all situations, but it is a natural reaction to force. Force engenders response. My experience of public school was an environment that required you to do a lot of things that were patently unnecessary; this created a desire to assert ones self in response.

And in my experience, especially again wrt public school, I was smarter than a lot of the adults, or at least it appeared that way given the restrictions placed on how we were allowed to interact. I feel that high school is full of adults who never realized their full potential, and students can sense this.

[WOSG]

Whoa buddy; so you really think bringing back the paddle is the solution to the problems of modern education? It's absense indicates a lack of moral rigor ie, we foolishly think the comfort and happiness is more important to the young than other things, like moral development. I say otherwise: Their moral development is important enough that we shouldnt exclude forms of discpline that work to shape young minds and create better habits and actions, even if it brings discomfort on kids (or for that matter adults. It's the adults who are too blame for getting squeamish or allowing their own lax moral standards to inflict similar laxness on kids.) It's not that you need to paddle that much, but failing to recognize its utility in some cases is a 'red flag' for where we have gone wrong wrt raising kids.

I can't go there with you. Respect and consensus trumps pain and force every time.

Where do you get the silly idea that respect and physical discipline are mutually exclusive? It's out of respect for kids that you want to do what will make them the best possible human beings. Lack of discpline is disrespectful for the potential of children. If you never ever corrected a child at all during their life so they never learned right from wrong, you know what that would be? child abuse.

Treat kids as adults in the sense that they are responsible for their own actions and will suffer consequences if they do wrong, and you will raise responsible human beings who respect their own selves as well as others.

And in my experience, especially again wrt public school, I was smarter than a lot of the adults, ... As someone with 150 IQ, I see nothing unusual about that. It's a good lesson for future life: You respect people whatever relative 'smarts' are. Just because you might be smarter than the "boss" doesnt mean you can mock him and keep your job! :-) ... or at least it appeared that way given the restrictions placed on how we were allowed to interact. Thanks for making my point, alas. What is unusual is our obsession with trying to "justify" authority rather than simply saying that authority eg of school officials can and should deserve respect as authority figures. It's not the schools business nor need to justify every rule to every smart-alecky kid in the schoolyard.

My experience of public school was an environment that required you to do a lot of things that were patently unnecessary; this created a desire to assert ones self in response. And my experience was that asserting oneself could be constructive or destructive ... and it was essential to discpline away destructive behaviors or things got out of hand.

[XBob]

logan - 54 - "It's why the end of corporal punishment has inevitably led to this.
Whoa buddy; so you really think bringing back the paddle is the solution to the problems of modern education? I can't go there with you. Respect and consensus trumps pain and force every time."

It appears you never learned a major lesson in life - the longer you fail to do something which needs to be done, because it irks you, the more time you will spend doing it, and the more time you will spend being irked.

EG - rebel in school and you should be made to stay after school - spending longer in school than if you conformed.

don't study in school because it irks you, and you will have to go to summer school - spending longer in school.

Don't go to summer school - and the longer you will take to graduate, for each grade you fail.

The longer you sas your parents, the longer the spanking should be.

The longer you misbehave, the longer your confinement in your room should be.

The more you sas your boss, the longer your unemployment will be (no good ecommndations).

Your attitudes are what is wrong with our youth, and you are condemning your children your future.