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A Plan to Save American Manufacturing
TradeAlert.org ^ | Wednesday, December 31, 2003 | Kevin L. Kearns, Alan Tonelson, and William Hawkins

Posted on 01/01/2004 9:04:11 AM PST by Willie Green

For education and discussion only. Not for commercial use.

Although warnings about the crisis engulfing American manufacturing have been intensifying for months, the sector´s woes continue to be significantly underestimated – certainly by official Washington and even by many manufacturers themselves.  In fact, despite the current boost in growth fueled by deficit spending, tax cuts, mortgage re-financings, and other one-time stimuli, the decline of American manufacturing is fast nearing the point of irreversibility – at least from the standpoint of restoring a critical mass of industries producing in the United States to world leadership.

The nation, in short, faces a manufacturing emergency. Unless drastic measures are taken quickly, this emergency will turn the United States into a second-class manufacturing power, greatly diminishing its own future economic prospects. Further, national security and flexibility in foreign affairs will be severely compromised.  Finally, the international imbalances being created by the manufacturing crisis will likely push the world into a major dollar crisis and could cause a protracted depression.

In part, the manufacturing crisis reflects the economy´s latest cyclical downturn and the deflating of the bubble of the 1990s.  Likewise, the manufacturing employment portion of the crisis stems in part from the increases in productivity in recent years.  But neither of these factors sufficiently explains the root cause of manufacturing´s current troubles, which are the worst by many measures since the end of World War II, and that is the cumulative and continuing effects of two decades of misguided, ill-advised, and weak-willed U.S. trade and globalization policies.

During this period, Washington has consistently failed to open foreign consumption markets adequately to U.S. producers – despite years of promises and the fanfare that greeted each new trade agreement.  In addition, the American government has failed miserably to combat predatory foreign trade practices aimed at undermining U.S. producers in their home market.  Perversely, Washington has responded to these failures by encouraging U.S. manufacturers to supply their home market from low-cost third world production platforms like Mexico and China. And most U.S. multinational corporations, and indeed some of their smaller suppliers, have responded with enthusiasm.

NO TIME TO LOSE

The most serious global macroeconomic dangers stemming from the continued flight of American manufacturing overseas have to date been avoided and may be postponed still further by continued financial policy legerdemain – though the faster America´s international debts keep rising, the more difficult the challenge of correcting the imbalances. But regardless of when the crunch actually comes, the weakening of domestic manufacturing is already undermining the material foundations of American national success.

The prolonged wage slump triggered by the overseas migration of America´s best-paying jobs on average has been rippling through the U.S. economy and American society for at least two decades.  The loss of these important jobs represents a shrinking of the employment base needed for a middle-class standard of living, stable families, and the local and state tax revenues necessary for a first-world level of responsibly financed public infrastructure and social services. Consequently, Americans find increasingly at risk their hard-won 20th century gains in access to quality education, health care, and retirement security (whether paid for by a solvent public sector or a sufficiently broad-based and profitable private sector).

In addition, the manufacturing crisis raises serious questions about the U.S. economy´s ability to maintain a high-tech, world-leading military without worrisome dependence on foreign products and technologies.  Although it is true that defense-related imports come overwhelmingly from long-time allies or traditionally friendly countries, it is just as true that they are growing rapidly at a time when major disagreements increasingly mark the relationships between the United States and these countries.

Further, the massive loss of tax revenue – both corporate and personal – directly attributable to a disappearing industrial base will undoubtedly constrain America´s ability to sustain military operations in both peacetime and wartime at levels that U.S. policymakers have come to take for granted.  Thus the country faces a future in which the ability to project power and thereby affect events and outcomes the world over will be much more limited than anytime in the last century and a quarter.

Most worrisome, the decline of American manufacturing is quickly feeding on itself and gaining unstoppable momentum. Washington´s continuing failure to secure equitable terms of trade forces more and more U.S. firms to compensate by outsourcing.  These moves create powerful pressure for growing numbers of the remaining hold-out companies to follow suit.

The migration of prime contractors overseas inexorably pulls much of their supply chains with them. The export of blue-collar production work leads to the export of white-collar manufacturing-related work, as companies seek the advantages of locating researchers and designers near the factories they service.  In fact, there is a continuous feed-back loop between R&D efforts and the factory floor, with the two functions, R&D and production, operating in tandem.  And as is well documented, R&D and other technology work often produce a clustering effect, which draws labs and similar facilities from other industries in search of new synergies. The notion that the United States will retain high-end design functions while letting production migrate overseas is wishful thinking.  Without major globalization policy changes, this vicious cycle of manufacturing flight cannot be turned into a virtuous cycle of manufacturing resurgence.

LESSONS OF THE RECENT PAST

The following action plan for saving and reviving U.S. industry incorporates recent policy lessons that Americans simply can no longer afford to ignore.

First, although America´s regulatory and tax systems have unnecessarily raised domestic business costs in many instances, the manufacturing crisis springs from far deeper roots. No regulatory, health care, or tax reform schemes that would produce acceptable economic, social, or political results can overcome the damage being done to American manufacturing by today´s globalization policy failures. Improved industrial competitiveness cannot and should not be based on gutting the basics of a just, humane, and inclusive society. Fundamentally new globalization policies are the sine qua non for saving and reviving American manufacturing.

Second, the United States will always have more control over its own actions than over the actions of other countries. Therefore, the keys to reversing American manufacturing´s decline lie neither in more market-opening trade agreements nor in efforts to micro-manage economic and social conditions overseas. Despite decades of so-called free trade agreements, too many foreign markets still remain too closed to U.S. exports. The main reason: Most of the world´s countries view trade as a zero sum game, with a piece of the American domestic market as the prize.  The handful of economies wealthy enough to consume American-made goods can erect new trade barriers faster than U.S. negotiators can even identify them. The U.S. government, moreover, has too much trouble enforcing its own laws and regulations here at home to imagine that enforcing foreign laws and regulations, even those imposed by future trade agreements, will be successful.

Instead, to achieve the necessary results, the United States must focus on managing its own behavior and controlling access to its own market, unilaterally conditioning that access ona strategic analysis of its own national needs and on acceptable practices by its trade partners. In addition, the United States must rely mainly on its own power and leverage to achieve satisfactory terms of trade.  As the record unmistakably shows, one-country-one-vote international organizations like the World Trade Organization too readily turn into mechanisms for undermining American sovereignty, diluting American power, and maintaining global economic free-riding.

Finally, Washington must recognize that simply promoting economic growth and higher incomes abroad will not alone cure U.S. manufacturing´s ills and rebalance America´s trade accounts. Most countries refuse to trust their economic fates to market forces or refuse to permit higher domestic growth to draw in proportionately higher volumes of imports. In short, too little commerce around the world is free enough to allow potential future growth to serve as a U.S. trade and manufacturing cure-all.

The following U.S. Business and Industry Council manufacturing blueprint emphasizes short-term emergency measures for reversing domestic manufacturing´s decline and laying the foundation for its revival. But it also includes longer-term proposals for ensuring that U.S. trade and globalization policies do not revert to the practices that have produced today´s crisis.

EMERGENCY MEASURES

1. The president must declare that the United States faces a manufacturing, R&D, and outsourcing emergency no less threatening to America´s long-term future than even the Great Depression. He must also make clear that the crisis stems mainly from the manipulation of world trading system by mercantilist countries and to the encouragement of offshoring by U.S. trade policy.

2. The president should create an Apollo Program-type task force in the federal government to oversee Washington´s response to the manufacturing crisis. Its mission should be to restore domestic U.S. manufacturing to global preeminence and to boost domestic manufacturing employment and wages.  The program should involve all agencies of U.S. government.

3. Federal R&D spending should be tripled and Washington should offer matching grants to industry.  Special emphasis should be placed on tasking the national labs with helping to develop commercially viable, high-tech products to be manufactured in the United States.

4. The U.S. trade deficit should be quickly and dramatically reduced by imposing a “variable trade equalization tariff” on imports from countries running a trade surplus ten percent or greater of total bilateral trade.  These tariffs should be increased each year until bilateral surpluses fall below the threshold level, at which time they would be removed. Tariffs should be imposed on U.S. trading partners as soon as surpluses reach the 10 percent threshold.

The United States should offer a partial exemption for the world´s poorest countries, but only if concrete, measurable trade breaks from the other OECD countries follow suit and only if the developing country seeking the exemption demonstrates a commitment to democracy and the economic advancement of all its people.  Exemptions are not intended to enrich corrupt, dictatorial elites.

In addition, exceptions would be made for energy imports and other commodities that are not found in the United States and for which no acceptable substitutes exist.

5. Companies manufacturing or assembling in the United States should be barred from treating service work performed overseas as a deductible business expense.  Private companies that outsource overseas the processing of sensitive records, such as medical and financial records, must ensure that their subcontractors meet U.S. privacy standards or face stiff fines.  

6.. Washington should declare a moratorium on all current and future free trade talks pending development of new national trade strategy. The United States government clearly has lost the ability to negotiate trade agreements that enrich the great majority of Americans and strengthen the domestic manufacturing base on net. U.S. leaders should not engage in trade negotiations until this ability is regained.

To develop a fundamentally new national trade strategy, the president and Congress should appoint a National Trade Strategy Commission that includes representatives of business plus civil society groups, such as labor unions and environmental groups. The business representatives on the Commission should be dominated by companies and industries that produce the great majority of their product and value in the United States. The Commission should also include representatives of the nation´s science and technology and national security communities.

7. Washington should declare a moratorium on U.S. compliance with WTO panel decisions pending dramatic reform of organization to reflect America´s position in world economy. The UN Security Council veto and the IMF/World Bank weighted voting systems are possible models of international organization structures appropriate to America´s geopolitical and economic superpower status. If appropriate reform is not completed by the end of 2005, the United States should declare its intention to withdraw from the organization as soon as legally permissible.

8. Washington should declare a moratorium on U.S. compliance with NAFTA panel decisions pending reform of NAFTA´s dispute-resolution process to reflect U.S. predominance in the North American economy. In addition, NAFTA´s rules of origin and external tariffs should be revised to offer meaningful trade preferences to goods with much higher levels of North American content.

9. The U.S. government should resolve the Foreign Sales Corporation tax dispute with the European Union and the World Trade Organization by replacing the current FSC tax incentive with a major tax break for any company, either American or foreign-owned, that performs genuine manufacturing activity in the United States.  Qualification for the tax break would require detailed certification that true manufacturing is occurring in the United States.

10. The United States should expedite procedures for anti-dumping and countervailing duty suits. Threshholds for standing, actionability, and remedies should all be eased. In addition, remedies should be extended to companies up and downstream from immediately affected industries to ensure protection for suppliers and consumers, and prevent foreign economic interests from using divide and conquer tactics against domestic industries.

11. The current steel tariffs should be expanded to cover industries using significant quantities of U.S.-made steel.  Further, the option of extending the tariffs beyond the original three-year deadline should be left open in order to determine conclusively that foreign steel subsidization and dumping have ceased.

12. A stiff tariff should be imposed on countries determined by the U.S. government to be manipulating their currencies for trade advantage. In light of the Treasury Department´s equivocation on the currency policies of Asian mercantilist nations, the definition of currency manipulation that now exists must be broadened.  A strong dollar remains in the long-term interests of the U.S. economy, but foreign governments must not be able to distort trade flows to the advantage of their companies by giving them artificial cost advantages.    

13. The defense industry must be treated by the federal government in a fundamentally different way from the commercial sector.  It exists solely to serve the national interest and national security, and must be structured and managed accordingly.  Therefore, a 65 percent U.S. content requirement should be imposed on all military procurement, rising to 80 percent in five years and 95 percent in ten years.  This requirement should immediately cover the procurement of all goods and services for domestic military facilities and operations, and to the fullest extent possible cover foreign bases as well.  Presidential waiver authority should be sharply limited, especially for countries that have records as problem traders or that demand offsets for purchases of American weapons systems.

14. Public money taken from the domestic economy by taxes or borrowing should be returned to the domestic economic economy by the procurement of American-produced goods and services.  Procuring government services domestically is also necessary to ensure the continued privacy and security of the financial and health records of all Americans.  Thus a 50 percent U.S.-content requirement should be imposed on all non-military federal procurement, rising to 80 percent in five years and 95 percent in ten years. Presidential waiver authority should be sharply limited. This requirement should immediately cover the procurement of all services for domestic facilities and programs.

15. The scheduled abolition of the Multi-Fiber Arrangement governing world trade in textile and apparel should be suspended indefinitely, pending a study of the effects of the MFA's abolition on domestic and third-world producers in these industries.

16. Stiff tariffs should be levied on countries that impose offset requirements on U.S. defense manufacturers.

17. The president should declare a moratorium on foreign acquisitions of U.S. defense-related companies pending completion of comprehensive study of the status of the roughly 1,500 such companies acquired since 1988 under the current policy framework and government screening system.

18. Strict, detailed country-of-origin labeling should be required on all food and agricultural imports.

19. Legal immigration into the United States should be limited to 500,000 annually. Enforcement measures to halt illegal immigration should be dramatically increased, including significant and sustained increases in the budgets of those federal agencies responsible for enforcing immigration laws.  

Immigration at today´s levels – both legal and illegal – can only serve to depress wages for American workers by artificially inflating the supply of labor. Moreover, the most likely victims of such massive immigration flows are the recent arrivals themselves, who are forced to compete directly for jobs with the unending flow of newcomers arriving right after them.

The H-1B visa program for technology workers should be abolished.  A new federal commission comprised both of U.S. technology worker interests and tech industry interests should conduct a study to determine labor needs in technology industries and how they should be met.

LONGER-TERM MEASURES

1. Washington must insist that any future trade agreements be strictly reciprocal and strongly enforceable by the U.S. government, unilaterally if necessary.

2. Any future U.S. trade agreements must include provisions penalizing signatories for currency manipulation.  IN fact, currency manipulation can be used to defeat or offset the effects of reducing or eliminating trade barriers.  

3. The president should launch a major diplomatic campaign to press other OECD countries to increase third world imports, enforceable unilaterally by tariffs on the products of any non-cooperating OECD countries. Under-importing of third-world products by the European Union and Japan in particular has greatly increased the pressure on the U.S. market to absorb third-world production. Greater burden sharing in this vital sphere is urgently needed.

Because the overriding interest of U.S. trade policy is to advance the economic interests of the great majority on the American people and the long-term security and prosperity of the United States, Americans should feel no special obligation to import goods or services from third-world, or indeed any other, countries.  Such imports are especially unacceptable if they sacrifice the interests of American workers and domestic companies.  But a campaign to get Europe and Japan to do more is needed for three reasons:

  1. to counter perceptions that U.S. protectionism is the greatest current barrier to third world economic development;
  2. to highlight America´s record in promoting this development; and
  3. to call attention to the poor importing records of the other main OECD countries.

4. The United States should focus any new trade agreements on high-income countries capable of serving as final consumers of U.S. exports. Washington´s recent focus on third world countries capable of serving only as re-export platforms has been a substantial contributor to today´s current trade deficits.  In particular, the United States should seek a free trade agreement with Europe that excludes agriculture.  Washington should also take stronger measures to open Japanese and Korean markets, including unilateral tariffs if necessary.

5. The president should remove responsibility for monitoring and enforcing trade agreements from the office of the U.S. Trade Representative and place it in the Department of Commerce. As the lead agency for negotiating new trade agreements, the USTR´s office has every incentive to soft-pedal the deficiencies in both the structure and functioning of these agreements. Dividing these responsibilities would eliminate a major policy-making conflict of interest.  

6. Congress should enact strict foreign lobbying reform covering all federal officials, including lifetime bans on working for foreign interests for former senior Executive and Legislative branch officials.

7. The Commerce and Defense Departments should be designated as co-chairs of the inter-agency Committee on Foreign Investment in the United States, which reviews all proposed foreign acquisitions of U.S. defense-related companies. Exon-Florio filings  must be made mandatory, and the threshold for investigation lowered.  With the Treasury Department chairing this panel for its decade-and-a-half of existence, national security concerns have not been adequately addressed in CFIUS´s decisions, which generally reflect only Treasury´s desire to see surplus dollars in foreign hands repatriated effortlessly.

8. The president should commission immediate reports – written by special Commercial Action Teams composed mainly of industry representatives and some government officials – on foreign subsidies existing outside the steel industry and implement tariffs to offset them. Washington should first offer to negotiate the abolition of such subsidies, but it must insist on results that are achieved quickly, as well as completely verifiable and enforceable by the U.S. government.

9. The federal government must publish more complete and timely foreign trade and investment data. This data should include detailed information on the importing, sourcing, and employment trends of all multinational companies and in fact all companies that do business in the United States.  The provision of the data to the appropriate government agencies must be made mandatory.

10. The president should launch a comprehensive review of all U.S. defense alliances to determine which remain relevant to 21st century U.S. interests.  The president should explicitly state that foreign policy and defense considerations will no longer automatically trump the economic interests of the United States and the American people.

STRONG – BUT ESSENTIAL – MEDICINE

No one should assume that implementing this manufacturing revival plan will be pain-free. All economic adjustments and transitions exact costs as well as create benefits.  Those necessary to improve the long-run fundamentals of American manufacturing and strengthen the foundations of the U.S. and world economies as a whole will be that much more difficult because of the national and global economic excesses that were fostered since the completion of the “Tokyo Round” of international trade talks, but especially during the 1990s.

Specifically, some temporary slowdown in U.S. and global growth rates seems unavoidable. And thanks to the power of recklessly expanded international trade and investment, pushed unceasingly by economic ideologues and short-sighted multinational companies, achieving this slowdown will require serious restrictions on trade and investment flows.

Yet the only alternatives proposed to date are policies that are already proven failures, or that are surrenders to wishful thinking. Moreover, these responses can only postpone the day of reckoning, not prevent it. And just as permitting a disease to fester usually ensures that the needed treatment will be that much stronger, more painful, and less certain to work, permitting the manufacturing crisis to fester and inflating the global economic bubble further will only increase, not decrease the economic dangers facing America and the world.

The implementation of restorative measurers cannot be left to the good sense of Washington policymakers and elected officials.  As a group, they have demonstrated convincingly time and again that they do not grasp the magnitude of the problems they have created and that they are bereft of comprehensive solutions.  Instead, they prefer cosmetic changes, designed to relieve political pressure and ensure reelection.

If the necessary policy reorientation is to be accomplished, the impetus must come from the remaining domestic manufacturers, their employees, their communities, and local and state governments, which are experiencing first-hand the budget crises caused in large part by globalization policies – whether the movement of plants overseas, company bankruptcies due to unfair foreign practices, high-tech and other services outsourcing, uncontrolled immigration with the resulting disproportionate consumption of social services, etc.  In short, grass roots efforts must reach critical mass to force Washington to change two generations of misguided policies.

If any political leaders or economic experts know how to solve the manufacturing and trade crises without the significant trade restrictions featured in our action plan, the U.S. Business and Industry Council would welcome their ideas with open arms. But we would also be wondering what they´ve been waiting for.  The time for comprehensive action to save American manufacturing has long since passed. Very soon there will be little left to save.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: freetrade; globalism; immigration; manufacturing; nationaldebt; nationalsecurity; sovereignty; technology; thebusheconomy; trade; tradedeficit
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To: nmh
This reply belongs to someone else:

No it doesn't. You said "It's actually you who is advocating socialism ". How so? Its you who say Congress advocating socialism in the many bills they propose doesn't matter.
401 posted on 01/04/2004 11:48:56 PM PST by hedgetrimmer
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To: gooleyman; All
383 - "but he still didn't want to cut any programs without some grand and glorious Blue Ribbon Commission Study of all departments of Government. "

Reagan actually did that, and they came up with hundreds of billions in savings on waste and corruption.

I cant remember who it was, that headed it, but he was pretty famous at the time, and it was an excellent study.

And it was promptly ignored by the Reagan administration, Reagan, and congress, by both parties.

Anyone remember the name of it/him?
402 posted on 01/05/2004 12:26:36 AM PST by XBob
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To: gooleyman
383 - Ah, I found it - the Grace Commission.

http://www.uhuh.com/taxstuff/gracecom.htm

1984 report.

Most excellent and most ignored.

"Following your directive to identify and suggest remedies for waste and abuse in the Federal Government, the President's Private Sector Survey (PPSS) offers recommendations which would save:

$424 billion in three years, rising to
$1.9 trillion per year by the year 2000. "
403 posted on 01/05/2004 12:32:30 AM PST by XBob
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To: nmh; superloser
385 - "Sorry, but the Government IS subsidizing outsourcing and offshoring through the Import/Export bank and other programs designed to facilitate overseas investment. The insulting and demeaning part about it is that the American Taxpayer is financing his own unemployment. Those are the facts. If you have others, please post them.

Npo the government is not subsidizing outsourced jobs. That is sheer paranoia. That is not the function of the import/export bank. You are trying to apply a simplistic definitioin to them that has nothing to do with their function. As always you post no facts to support this because they do not exist. It's sheer fabrication on your part. "

nmh - dummie - you got it bass ackwards again - just like marx and free trade - how can you be such an arrogant ignoramus, and remain so stoooooooopid.

I am not going to go do the research that give companies tax breaks and subsidises their moves overseas, it is there - but you get off your lazy ignorant butt and find it yourself.

You are a fool, and wasting our band width.
404 posted on 01/05/2004 12:41:05 AM PST by XBob
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To: nmh
391-"I already have a job and doing quite well."

I read that, you seem to think you are secure - LOL.

Well, just tell us where and what you do. I have a number of contacts who will fill it, or even export it for you.
405 posted on 01/05/2004 12:45:55 AM PST by XBob
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To: nmh
Here I thought you were the tariff pusher ... oh well ...

I am. I'd use tariffs to reduce taxes on business across the board. All business taxes are paid by the consumer in the end anyhow. Better to pay them up front and know what they are then have them back-loaded and hidden.

I believe we need a moratorium and during that time raise the bar on standards. Family ties shouldn't be the end all criteria. They need to have something to offer.

Music to my ears. My Congresscritter is getting tired of me advocating that to him by now, I bet.

Why are you so down on progress and raising the bar for folks to being more prosperous?

I'm not. I just think that what passes for "free trade" these days is anything but.

Permitting an American company to uproot and fire American workers simply because they can find $1/day labor somewhere else isn't free trade. Its labor arbitrage.

Permitting a foreign company access to our markets and granting our companies access to their markets without tariffs *is* free trade. I draw that distinction.

Our multinational corporations are simply engaged in labor arbitrage, a race to the bottom in terms of costs.

True "free trade" in the traditional Adam Smith style would work like this:

American made products go to Canada tariff-free. Canadian-made products go to American tariff-free. Workers on both sides produce the best products they can. Competition between the countries will wind up with each country using its own resources to its best advantage. Everyone wins in this scenario. Canada makes cookies better than we do, so they specialize in that. We make widgets better than they do, so we specialize in that. We trade, everyone is better off.

Do you agree? That's the situation we'd like to see, right?

But.....wait! This is the REAL scenario:

I can just shut down my factory here, fire everyone, let the Government take care of them, tell them "Sorry, guys, but bugger off" and move my factory to Canada then take advantage of the "free trade" to move my products into America!

Nuh-uh. That's labor arbitrage, not free trade. That's my objection, but the "free trade" treaties don't distinguish between who owns the company and who doesn't.

In the latter situation, its what we have with China, only the terms of the deal are much worse. The Chinese Government owns 51% of the factory and KEEPS IT and ALL the technology therein! Yikes! We've just armed a competitor!

I also refuse to support mercantilist nations -- period.

Your "outcomes" are based on personal opinion, not facts.

I've drawn then all back to so-called "free trade."

As an example, Mexico blames NAFTA for the mass exodus north. Our media blames NAFTA for the mass exodus north. Interviews with illegal aliens blame NAFTA for the mass exodus north. I'm not sure how much more "fact" is needed for that.

So, when I see a policy that is causing other things that I can't abide, I start looking for ways to ditch that policy. If the results of a policy cause things that are obnoxious, the policy has to go. At least, that's how I see it. All things are interconnected. What is the link that makes it so? Find the root cause and eliminate that. Everything I'm seeing from calls for more Government handouts to the trade deficit can likely be handled by the judicious application of tariffs. History says it works and I'm not one to argue with history! America was built from behind tariff walls.

And so was Japan. China is and so is India as well.

The guys losing their jobs due to this so-called "free trade" (which is really just labor arbitrage) are winding up demanding additional Government programs. I hate Government programs. I don't want to see any more expansion of Government. I don't want to see more tax money blown because enough yahoos got together to vote themselves into my wallet.

So, I wind up back looking at tariffs again.

Its a cheap solution to a more expensive problem since Government programs don't go away, never expire, and just consume more of the country's resources, and are very VERY hard to fight -- ever since they were deemed Constitutional (which they're not, no matter what USSC says)

Now, before you hit the reply button, I do believe strongly in "creative destruction" of industry. The buggy whip makers all found jobs making cars when their industry was eliminated.

If we kept manufacturing here, sure, it would be automated, but there would be jobs assembling, maintaining, selling, and designing the robotics to do the manufacturing. We destroy one job only to create another that people can jump to. The jobs created through that process are generally higher paying than the ones destroyed. Everyone wins!

Shoving the whole thing to another country eliminates the "move to another industry" part of the whole progressive "creative destruction" process.

This is why the "buggy whip" analogy doesn't quite apply. The last part of the equation is missing when a company offshores.

A lot of free traders on FR miss the "creative destruction" process and how it runs from start to finish. Everyone wins if the process is allowed to go. Short-circuiting it or lopping off the end of it creates a distortion in a natural process, one that is *Government Sponsored* and therefore -- evil!

Okay, I have to ask ... any particular reason why you chose "superloser" as a moniker?

My first ten choices were already taken so I pulled out an old name I used to play Netrek under. I could have picked _Clueless Twink_ which is another I played both Netrek and Yahoo! Chess under. But, I like ironies so this suits me fine :)

406 posted on 01/05/2004 1:24:52 AM PST by superloser
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To: RaceBannon
You have mail. answer now!!!
407 posted on 01/05/2004 6:40:24 AM PST by raybbr
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To: nmh; Texas_Dawg; Cato; Cacophonous; maui_hawaii; ALOHA RONNIE
My answer is find another way to make a living! Government has NOTHING to do with moving mfg. jobs to a country that will do it for less

This is a flippant response to a serious problem. The de-industrialization of this country is a serious problem. The loss of critical technology is a serious problem. The loss of the jobs which those endeavors used to provide, and the economic strength concomitant with a skilled, well paid labor force is a serious problem.

And as FReeper Chimera stated elsewhere, which warrants re-posting:

"Let me one more time raise a cry in the wilderness of the "free trade" obsessive devotees here on FR. And that is, not only are we losing our current capabilities in industry and technology, capabilities hard won and built with the blood and sweat of prior generations, we're losing the future. I walk into classes in the university to teach fundamental engineering principles and see faces that are 90% foreign nationals, whereas when I sat in those same classes as a student going on 30 years ago, 80% of them were American. We are not only losing the physical infrastructure of manufacturing and technology, we're losing the home-grown intellectual capital. The best and brightest students today can see well enough what's happening. They see trial lawyers making millions suing companies out of business, they see government regulators promulgating layer after layer of bureaucracy and forcing individuals and businesses to pay it, they see CEOs making tens of millions of dollars a year in salaries and bonuses laying off ordinary workers in droves and closing plants and offices and research laboratories and selling them for scrap or sending the work overseas. So what do they do? Flock to the law schools and business schools and political science departments to get a piece of that action.

The "free trader" response to this, of course, seems to be something along the lines of "Good! If workers and professionals today can't make it in the global economy, screw 'em, let them work at McDonald's, or Wal-Mart. Get re-trained (like a Ph.D. in EE or physics can be any more educated) and become a nurse or electrician. We'll be OK as long as we can import what we need." But I say, there may come a time when those we are importing from may not wish to sell us what we ask for, for their own reasons. Say we become dependent on China for military electronics, and maybe the Chinese decide that it might be better for them that we not have that hardware. So then the free traders say, well, good, there's a demand now domestically, so the free market will provide that domestic industry. Only it can't, because we've put out of business and destroyed the lives and careers of the very people who could re-invent those industries, or kept them viable in the first place, if only business and political decisions had not been made which ended up destroying them. You just don't have basic and high-tech industries spring full-grown overnight."

[ I hereby nominate Chimera's observations as the Opinion of the Week]

408 posted on 01/05/2004 8:50:10 AM PST by Paul Ross (Reform Islam Now! -- Nuke Mecca!)
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To: Paul Ross
What you don't like is reality. There is no other option but to DO something else when your product/service is no longer competitive with your competition.

It is the only logical thing to do and what makes the U.S. a leading power. Most people are innovative and rise to the occasion. Maybe you are not in that category but others are so step aside or don't be devastated when you are penniless. It is unreasonable to expect the government or anyone else to keep jobs alive that are done cheaply and BETTER elsewhere. You are suggesting a government controlled economy - like Marxism. That is a major component - something for everyone and each collects based on need. Might as well acknowledge what you are seeking.

OTOH, I prefer an economy based on supply and demand. This encourages a "better mousetrap". The U.S. has always strived to be superior. While you strive for inferiority, protected by laws and competition kept at bay through tariffs. Sorry but I can't buy into that nor will business people so I don't worry about your fantasy coming true. Just as unions are dying, and for the SAME reasons you are seeking for other lines of work, so will mfg and IT jobs continue to be done elsewhere. If you're not up to the challenge - fine. As I said others are and doing well.
409 posted on 01/05/2004 9:18:07 AM PST by nmh
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To: XBob
391-"I already have a job and doing quite well."

I read that, you seem to think you are secure - LOL.

I am secure and doing well.

Well, just tell us where and what you do. I have a number of contacts who will fill it, or even export it for you.

I don't need import or export people. I also don't get personal on FR. Lastly don't need or want anything to do with YOUR contacts and other gloom and doom people with an attitude.
410 posted on 01/05/2004 9:22:21 AM PST by nmh
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To: XBob
nmh - dummie - you got it bass ackwards again - just like marx and free trade - how can you be such an arrogant ignoramus, and remain so stoooooooopid.

That's what I like about folks like you. Can't back up your assertions with facts so you resort to juvenile name calling. YAAAAAWWWWNNNNN.

I am not going to go do the research that give companies tax breaks and subsidises their moves overseas, it is there - but you get off your lazy ignorant butt and find it yourself.

Because what I am talking about government is NOT subsidizing hence there is NO research to point to to support your paranoia. Yeah, call me lazy when you can't validate your paranoia.

You are a fool, and wasting our band width.

More name calling? YAAAWWWNNNN. Wake me up when you have something to say that's worth reading.
411 posted on 01/05/2004 9:26:08 AM PST by nmh
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To: hedgetrimmer
This reply belongs to someone else:

No it doesn't. You said "It's actually you who is advocating socialism ". How so? Its you who say Congress advocating socialism in the many bills they propose doesn't matter.

I see what you are saying. Sure many in Congress are socialist however ever bill they propose doe not get passed. The one you pointed too hasn't passed either. I was restricted my focus to what has passed and what is going on now, not what MIGHT happen.
412 posted on 01/05/2004 9:28:24 AM PST by nmh
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To: nmh
411 - "Because what I am talking about government is NOT subsidizing hence there is NO research to point to to support your paranoia. Yeah, call me lazy when you can't validate your paranoia."

Sorry - but there are numbers laws passed by congress which subsidize the export of our industries.

"None are so blind as those who will not see"

Now get off your lazy, ignorant butt and do some research, or remain forever ignorant.

Sorry - but I don't think the stupidity can be overcome.
413 posted on 01/05/2004 10:03:14 AM PST by XBob
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To: XBob
...the Grace Commission...1984 report...Most excellent and most ignored

-----
Holy Smokes did you say a mouthfull!! It was touted at the time as the be-all-to-end all and the liberals fought it every step of the way once it was done. Peter (I think that was his name) Grace was all over the TV talking head shows until he finally realized that he had done ALL that work and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING was going to be done with it. What a waste! Iran-Contra took over the headlines and I haven't seen much of him since.

My cousin never would say he would implement any of the suggesstions that would have come from his new commission we argued about on New Years Eve. All he wanted to do was study it. Typical hard-core Liberal.

Happy New Year!!
414 posted on 01/05/2004 10:21:18 AM PST by gooleyman
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To: superloser; nmh
406 - "In the latter situation, its what we have with China, only the terms of the deal are much worse. The Chinese Government owns 51% of the factory and KEEPS IT and ALL the technology therein! Yikes! We've just armed a competitor! "

Forget it. nmh is not smart enough to figure this out, even when you explain it so directly and well as you have in this post - we are wasting our time.

He thinks that somthing does not exist, therefore, he proves it doesn't exist by not looking.

You and I and others have literally whopped him up side the head with 2x4s and it still hasn't gotten through.

Let's quit wasting our 2x4s.
415 posted on 01/05/2004 10:38:34 AM PST by XBob
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To: XBob; nmh
Forget it. nmh is not smart enough to figure this out, even when you explain it so directly and well as you have in this post - we are wasting our time.

I have to keep trying otherwise we will keep running down the same bad policy decisions. Just like I have to keep explaining the same things to my liberal relatives. Of course, they are down in California still in denial.

He thinks that somthing does not exist, therefore, he proves it doesn't exist by not looking.

The problem, IMO, is that "free traders" view wealth in terms of dollars and cents rather than in terms of owning the technology and factors of production. Being able to produce goods and services is much greater wealth than simply purchasing them. The Japanese are now the world's largest creditor nation and we are the world's largest debtor nation. The Japanese work hard at making sure they own outright all factors of production. We used to, but went looking for cheap consumer goods instead. BUT, sometimes people have to learn the hard way.

You and I and others have literally whopped him up side the head with 2x4s and it still hasn't gotten through.

True, but you still have to keep trying. I'm trying to be polite and see what facts they're using other than that we can print fiat dollars and give others little green pieces of paper in exchange for goods and they like that arrangement. Eventually, as is going on right now (Dollar below 87 on the Dollar Index) it comes a-cropper and the currency tanks as a result of trade deficits. In the Gold Standard Era, it meant that gold left the shores. These days, the currency tanks. Same difference; purchasing power drops signifigantly until the deficit is taken care of.

How we are going to even out the trade deficits without the ability to produce goods to exchange? How far will the dollar fall? Are we ready for $4/gallon gasoline if the dollar collapses? Nobody yet has been able to answer that question other than to say "print more dollars." Sigh.

416 posted on 01/05/2004 2:11:31 PM PST by superloser
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To: superloser; All; Willie Green
To all except nmh, who is too lazy to read it:

416 - , SL - Here's where your job went, and many others:

http://www.h1bvisasucks.com/H1BDiscussions_solutions_nj.htm

this is just full of documentation about our governments and corporations screwing the American worker. Too full of interesting/amazing stuff to begin to post,

Like the state of Indiana offshoring its state program to stop offshoring jobs and save American jobs, to India.

Like a congressman from Washington state (home of Microsoft and Boeing) visiting India and promising to send even more American jobs to India, and to block attempts in the US to stop it.

Like the State of New Jersey offshoring the state unemployment office work to India.

Like many companies, including Bank of America (BAC ), Dell Computer (DELL ), General Electric (GE ), Merrill Lynch (MER ), and Siemens (SI ). [Apple Computer (APPL ), Bank One (ONE ), Boeing (BA ), and Eli Lilly (ELI ). ], firing American workers in the US and hiring cheaper foreign workers on H-1 and L-1 visas, here in the US:

"EXPLOITING LOOPHOLES. While many L-1s ease the intracompany transfers they're meant for, outsourcing has triggered a surge in their numbers. New L-1s jumped by 50% from 1998 to 2002, to 58,000, and climbed an additional 10% in the first five months of fiscal 2003, according to State Dept. data. Meanwhile, new H-1B visas plunged by 27% through 2002 and fell 17% so far in fiscal 2003. What's more, L-1s allow employees to remain in the U.S. for up to seven years and can include multiple workers. H-1Bs are issued to individuals, who are limited to six-year stays. There were 384,000 people working in the U.S. on H-1Bs in 2001, the last year available, and at 329,000, nearly as many on L-1s."





417 posted on 01/05/2004 8:35:29 PM PST by XBob
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To: superloser
416 - Superloser - great post, however:

"Are we ready for $4/gallon gasoline if the dollar collapses? Nobody yet has been able to answer that question other than to say "print more dollars." Sigh."

I don't think you have any idea what a currency collapse means. $4 per gallon gas is not currency collapse. Currency collapse means $10,000 per gallon gasoline, like happened in Russia.

The Russian Ruble was worth $1.25, 20 years ago. That's what I exchanged in about 1980, at the official rates, to visit Russia. Now, the latest rate is 6,845.84 rubles to $1.

And this is what we are faced with if we lose this battle.
418 posted on 01/05/2004 8:45:05 PM PST by XBob
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To: RLK; ninenot; Last Dakotan; gooleyman; A. Pole; Paul Ross; Jerr
417 - bump - a very important web site.
419 posted on 01/05/2004 8:59:32 PM PST by XBob
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To: superloser
Sorry, SL, I got the wrong column in the exchange rates, I got the contract value: Actual current exchange rate is 29.2307.

So, it is $45/gallon gasoline.
420 posted on 01/05/2004 9:08:25 PM PST by XBob
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