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To: possible
The only created things are those created by man.

Is it fair then to conclude that you don't believe in God, understood as the one who created the universe?

Since, with the exceptions I previously mentioned, (life, consciousness, and volition--which pertain only to living organisms, themselves all physically existing) physical existence (the universe) is all that exists. It could not have been created because whatever created it would already have had to exist, that is, would have to be part of existence, that is, the universe.

Theists generally believe the universe is not all that exists, but there is no grounds for this belief at all. We hardly have grasped what the universe is, or even how much of it there is, much less have any reason to suppose there is something else of which the universe is not a part.

If you mean by God, something that is not part of existence, (the universe) than I do not believe in that. I do not believe in anything that does not exist or for which there is no reason (or evidence) to supose does exist.

(By the way, I intend to get back to your other question concerning the objective basis for determining theft or "stealing" is immoral. We have a ways to go. We have not yet determined what "morality," means. That will be next, I think.

Hank

269 posted on 01/06/2004 7:05:24 PM PST by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief
I intend to get back to your other question concerning the objective basis for determining theft or "stealing" is immoral.

I look forward to your attempt. On the other hand, I believe that at some point you will see that the project of reasoning from observable evidence to a moral conclusion is hopeless. This was the grand project of "enlightenment" philosophy, a project which ended in complete and utter failure.

272 posted on 01/08/2004 7:59:32 PM PST by possible
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To: Hank Kerchief
Theists generally believe the universe is not all that exists, but there is no grounds for this belief at all.

This is simply false. You may reject the grounds I and other theists cite for believing in God as inadequate. But they are grounds nonetheless.

1. Like a person examining a watch and concluding that there must be a watchmaker, we see finely detailed structure in the universe, especially in living things, and conclude that a plausible explanation is that there is a creator.

2. We observe that the universe operates based on regular principles and conclude that a plausible explanation is that there is a creator.

3. We observe that most people have a remarkably similar sense of right and wrong and conclude that a plausible explanation is that a creator gave this to us.

4. Apart from considering what God asks of us, we find no basis in reason or the world for believing that there is such as right and wrong.

5. We have a record of the testimony of multiple eyewitness to many miracles, including the resurrection of Jesus. In fact, we have a record of the testimony of many eyewitnesses who did not recant even though they were tortured and killed for their testimony.

6. We have an historical record in the Bible that has proved through archaeology to be very reliable.

7. We have a record of fulfilled Biblical prophesy that lends credence to the balance of the text.

Please refrain from saying we have no grounds for our belief. You will also do well to consider the following:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” (John 3:16-19 AV)

282 posted on 01/18/2004 7:49:44 PM PST by possible
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