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To: Phaedrus; Alamo-Girl; RightWhale; Right Wing Professor; marron; RadioAstronomer; Aquinasfan; ...
As Barr makes clear, sciences like modern physics can and must be separated from materialism. Materialism is the belief that nothing exists besides matter, and it is a philosophical opinion. It may have, as Barr puts it, "[grown] up alongside science," but it's not science. Remember that, a critical point....

The assumption that you have to take a materialist worldview in order to do science is simply wrong. There's nothing about physics, for example, that assumes, much less demands, that view of the universe. In fact, many of the greatest scientists, like Newton, Galileo, and Copernicus, were religious believers.

Despite these facts, philosophical materialism [defined in all dictionaries I've ever consulted as a "philosophical opinion"] has become so identified with science that scientists, and the general public, often have trouble telling them apart, which is why the discoveries that Barr describes come as a surprise, and their implications are resisted by many within the academy.

These implications aren't inconsistent with science, but rather with their dogmatic materialist worldview. Resisting these implications has required ingenious, almost fanciful, attempts to interpret the evidence in a way consistent with the materialist worldview.

Sorry for sprinkling around so many bolds, Phaedrus; but the point Barr makes about materialism not being science needs some "drilling in": A lot of people simply conflate the two -- and it shows. As a result, we often wind up with an "end-justifying-the means" type of science....

This is a very fine book, Phaedrus. I highly recommend it. Thanks so much for the ping. Merry Christmas!

122 posted on 12/23/2003 11:28:10 AM PST by betty boop (God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world. -- Paul Dirac)
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To: betty boop; All
...the point Barr makes about materialism not being science needs some "drilling in": A lot of people simply conflate the two -- and it shows.

It does, indeed. Sophistry abounds, which is why I draw my "parsing sword" so frequently ... ;-}

Merry Christmas to All and may the new year bring you Only Good Things.

123 posted on 12/23/2003 11:44:43 AM PST by Phaedrus
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To: betty boop
As Barr makes clear, sciences like modern physics can and must be separated from materialism.

I think we've been around a few times on this before, BB. So once more I'll ask you: If you were in charge of a science research facility, and if you had an unlimited budget, how would you go about investigating things other then matter and energy? What equipment would you use? How would you go about studying the nature and properties and behavior of the spiritual domain?

I respectfully suggest that there is nothing you could do, scientifically, to advance the "non-materialist agenda" (if such a thing exists). As I've said before, science can only do what it can do. It can't measure what it can't measure. It can't observe what is -- by definition -- not observable.

Science has limits. It's stuck with investigating the observable world. That's not a justification for criticism, it's just a definition. Within its limits, science performs very well. The other aspects of existence are, of necessity, the domain of theology.

124 posted on 12/23/2003 11:59:32 AM PST by PatrickHenry (I will do whatever the Americans want because I saw what happened in Iraq and I was afraid.- Gadhafi)
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