Jobs Come and Go (One of the smartest economists in the world hits the nail on the head)

www.townhall.com ^ | 11/26/2003 | Walter E. Williams

[DeathAngel]

The serious difference between then and now is that we didn't ship, er "outsource", those jobs to India, China, and Mexico.

[optimistically_conservative]

I'm taken by the coincidence that in both refutations I am engaging in "wishful thinking."

Paul Ross, thank you for an explanation of your position.

If I understand your position, outsourcing of the manufacturing of the product is a leading indicator to the movement of all functions of the business to the same location. Effectively American businesses and businessmen picking up and moving to China instead of just a foreign direct investment (FDI). You also then make the case that FDI (assumably not limited to niche outsourcing across labor markets) leads to indigenous foreign labor becoming more competitive than the firm that outsourced there.

There have been studies of outsourcing and it's impact on the skilled and unskilled or low-skilled work force, trade and competition. Would you like to discuss them?

Expansion Strategies of U.S. Multinational Firms

The Impacts of Technology, Trade and Outsourcing on Employment

Outsourcing at Will: Unjust Dismissal Doctrine and the Growth of Temporary Help Employment

[laredo44]

Colorful imagery aside, your post is an excellent example of communist sophistry.

While not willing to protect your nation's citizens...

Protect them from liberty? Methinks the commie you've outed is you.

[optimistically_conservative]

Welfare

I'd be happy to discuss whether government spending on unemployment and underemployment has been rising or falling over the last decade and comparing the business cycle trends and spending with those from the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. I do think that is an important metric for verifying unemployment rates.

[The Duke]

I happened into this page and it looks like a good place to start learning about Globalization and the role of economics.

Hey, that's a *GREAT* reference - bookmark set here!

-Thanks!

[chimera]

It appears, however, that, while not a risk taker yourself, you are willing to assist in distributing the risk takers rewards.

It appears, however, that you are wrong. You don't know my life's history. I have taken plenty of risks and planted lots of wheat, but perhaps haven't bought into as much as others here on FR the greedy, rapacious, out-of-control, grub-for-every-last-almighty-dollar-and-to-hell-with-everyone-else version of capitalism. Sure, I've gone out into the world and staked my claim, and in the process have helped others to do likewise, but I have been able to do so without destroying them in the process. And I've seen first-hand the benefits of a reasonable distribution of the rewards, in terms of a stable and profitable business, employment for my friends and colleagues, all to the benefit of them and their families. All done without sending a single job overseas or throwing a worker out on the street so I can line my pockets a little more. You're free to call it "socialist sophistry" if you want, but it's more correctly classified as a less greedy, less voracious form of capitalism, and, in the end, it's been a successful model and I don't see anything wrong with it.

That's all I'm saying. Sure, operate your business and make a decent profit, but try to do so without destroying the people who work for you in the process. If that means you take home $800,000 that week as the CEO instead of $800,100, then, well, be content with that, because by doing so maybe you've helped saved the career of some $800/week working stiff with kids in school and a mortgage to pay. Don't ruin him by sending his job overseas just to put a few more of those lousy almighty dollars in your own pocket. And, who knows, one day, you may find that the life you save may be your own.

[Willie Green]

'Slave labor' in manufacturing is dying out as it becomes cheaper to automate technology than to feed, clothe, & house the slaves.

Bulloney.
Slink back under your rock, tpaine, and wallow in your own bizarro interpretations of the Constitution.
At least when you do that, it's not quite so obvious that you're an idiot.

[riri]

You are always such a pleasure. Happy Holidays.

[hosepipe]

Business is naturally escapeing predatory Unions and predatory tort laws... business = smart, unions = not, lawyers = top of the food chain

[tpaine]

Go back to watching the Oprah Show, Willie, until you formulate a rationale of your own on how we will deal with surplus workers in a high tech world. -- Can you even address the problem?
143 tpaine

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Uh, in idealized economic model, greater technology for production creates more jobs. Someone is needed to design, produce, and maintain the machines.
But Outsourcing to competing labor sources merely destroys the employment opportunities for domestic labor. This production diversion can have catastrophic effects on the U.S. economy in the long run. The negative multipliers for a national economy of outsourcing is non-debatable.
263 -Paul Ross-

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"in an idealized economic model"?
Seems that neither you, nor willy, can address the real world problem.
How will we deal with surplus workers in a high tech world.?
269 -tpaine-

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Willie Green wrote:
Bulloney.
Slink back under your rock, tpaine, and wallow in your own bizarro interpretations of the Constitution.
At least when you do that, it's not quite so obvious that you're an idiot.

---

Brilliant reply willy. You've shown everyone here your own idiocy. Thanks.

[syriacus]

True. I have a lot to learn and a lot of reading to do.

Maybe I should have limited my post to my first line of response, which was "Fewer people could afford to buy things back then".

From another FR thread:

Myths of the Smoot-Hawley Tariff

In consistency with today, free traders historically look at tariffs (indirect taxes) on imports as causing consumers to pay more while ignoring direct taxes on American consumers. There are few that will mention or acknowledge that President Hoover raised the top income tax rate from 25 percent to 65 percent in 1932. FDR continued this atrocious policy by further raising the rate to 79 percent!This insurmountable climb in the income tax rate reaped far more damage on the American consumer than any modest tariff increase on a select amount of import sensitive items. Keep in mind that tariffs are a discretionary, indirect tax. The consumer can choose to buy the import or the domestic good, and therefore refuse to pay the tariff, but no consumer escapes direct income taxes. Everyone must pay. It's no wonder it took World War II to drag us out of the bottom of the economic barrel.

[Willie Green]

until you formulate a rationale of your own on how we will deal with surplus workers in a high tech world. -- Can you even address the problem?

What problem?
Do you mean your absurd contention that "it becomes cheaper to automate technology than to feed, clothe, & house the slaves."???
No tpaine, I will NOT address that "problem".
As usual, you've merely formulated an extremist fringe scenario that isn't gonna happen in the real world.
I'm not gonna waste my time with you by "debating" such silliness.

Whatever technology becomes so cheap to put slaves out of work merely increases the portion of the workforce that's in unemployed poverty, further dragging down the ones who are still managing to eek out a living. (Unless, of course, they starve to death first.)

[Blue Collar Christian]

It's amazing how much protectionism is instituted to protect those that lack the ambition to stay on top. Every time we reward lack of ambition, we step closer to a socialistic tyranny.

[Jerr]

The author of this article is definately at least a brick shy of a full load. India has class society and no significant incentive for a free and capitalist economy.

Not saying they can't do better, but not when almost nobody values such innovation and advances.

[XBob]

139 - "Who's gonna buy those goods after wages are chopped in half?
Those whose wages are doubled."

===
Glad you 'understand'. Now, just how many Florida oranges is that Bengladeshi going to buy, who has had his hourly wage doubled, from 5 cents to 10 cents per hour, when Florida Oranges cost $1.00 each in Bengladesh?

[XBob]

142 - well put:

"It's the old adage, nothing is impossible for the man who doesn't have to do it himself. When you can look forward to working in your chosen profession until you retire (i.e., "guaranteed a job", as some here like to rant), it's easy to tell others to adapt or screw 'em, or quit whining and start a business, or get retraining in your late 50s, or whatever."

[tpaine]

tpaine:
It is rapidly becoming cheaper to automate technology than to feed, clothe, & house slaves.
Can you formulate a rationale of your own on how we will deal with surplus workers in a high tech world?

---

Whatever technology becomes so cheap to put slaves out of work merely increases the portion of the workforce that's in unemployed poverty, further dragging down the ones who are still managing to eek out a living.
(Unless, of course, they starve to death first.)
292 -willy-

---

You're belaboring the obvious willy, in place of offering up your brilliant solution..

Could it be there is no solution? That Williams is right in writing:

"These are signs of a healthy economy, where businesses start up, fail, downsize and upsize, and workers are fired and workers are hired all in the process of adapting to changing technological, economic and global conditions. Societies become richer when this process is allowed to occur. Indeed, because our nation has a history of allowing this process to occur goes a long way toward explaining why we are richer than the rest of the world.

Those Americans calling for government restrictions that would deny companies and ultimately consumers to benefit from cheaper methods of production are asking us to accept lower wealth in order to protect special interests.

Of course, they don't cloak their agenda that way. It's always "national security," "level playing fields" and "protecting jobs". Don't fall for it -- we'll all become losers."

[XBob]

153- "there's no "construction" side to the creative destruction of capitalism. There's just a hole. Now you can say "Well he can move on to another field" -- joining his 10k fellow programmers / radiologists / CPAs / etc."

bttt

[XBob]

154-"just watch Jerry Springer someday --- both the guests and the audience ---- you'll realize that there are people who can't finish college, can't find make a whole bunch of choices --- look at the bell curve and the average IQ of 100 ---- for everyone with an IQ of 120, there is someone with an IQ of 80, for everyone with an IQ of 130, there is someone with an IQ of 70. They need jobs or they all end up being supported by the rest of us --- and with all their free time living on welfare, they will tend to out-reproduce the over 100 IQ types."

bttt

[ninenot]

The "temp help" item would seem to indicate that once again, US reg costs have scored a victory over US laborers.

I'm still working on getting the PDF open; my Win "open with" dialog box does NOT include the Acrobat package, for some mysterious reason...