Additional Stryker Brigade Acquistions Approved

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How come I get the feeling that this is motivated by the one single success in combat the Stryker so far has had?

Perhaps because you are predisposed to belief in vast, dark conspiracies, and are completely ignorant of the convoluted process that requires many months for the decisions behind such an announcement to wind their way through the halls of government.

There have been procurements based on little or no actual testing data, before a prototype even got off the ground.
So month long convoluted procurements don't necessarily happen all teh time.

Don't be shocked if FCS gets expedited the same way Stryker did.

Not likely, given some of the technical challenges that must be overcome. I expect that FCS will shift to the right as do most highly complex weapons systems. I do think that you will see a quicker evolution of organizations, tactics, and equipment mixes that gives current Army unit more FCS-type capabilities. Standing in the way of this will be the procurement bureaucrats who do not wish to see any changes to the current acquisition system.

They will have to do something with Stryker. It does not successfully do what it was intended for. They may bring back the M-113 if the FCS won't fly.

15,000 casualties during the Battle of the Bulge

Your posts are usually so good, and so informative to these discussions, that I feel compelled to make a few minor corrections so that we can continue to rely on you for the straight poop.

I do not recall off the top of my head, the 28th Inf Div's casualties, but they were very large. I will try to find a source and post it later. But, they actually experienced their biggest losses in the Battle of the Hurtgen Forest. They were bloodied badly again during the Bulge, but their Bloody Bucket nickname comes from the Hurtgen where 4 U.S. divisions were chewed up in heavy fighting during the summer and fall of 1944.

The organization that you describe is precisely the division organization of World War II. During World War I, divisions were much larger, comprising 2 brigades of 2 regiments. Each regiment had three battalions, with 4 rifle companies. Each rifle company had 4 platoons of 4 rifle squads. This organization was known as the square division. For World War II, the division was streamlined for mobility purposes - the brigades were eliminated, regiments reduced by one, and subordinate elements standardized at three. This was known as the triangular division.

I think that the General Order you cite is a Pennsylvania General Order, not a federal one. Pennsylvania was the first state to organize its militia into a division organization, but I don't think that the U.S. Army recognizes this. A minor point, but since the Big Red One mafia rules, I don't think that the 28th Division will ever be granted seniority status.

Update on 28th Infantry Division Casualties.

According to the U.S. Army Center for Military History the 28th Infantry Division suffered a total of 15,904 battle casualties during World War II. This figure has worked its way into some historical accounts as the casualty figure for the division during the Battle of the Bulge. Those casualties break down this way:

Killed in Action: 1,901
Wounded: 9,157
Missing: 2,599
Captured: 2,247

Can't find a good source for Battle of the Bulge Casualties, but the Army Green Book Series says that official numbers for the 110th Infantry Regiment are not available - estimates given by officers of the regiment were 2,500. The 112th Infantry Regiment was also hard hit during the Bulge and probably suffered similar casualties. Not sure what the figures are for the rest of the division.

Here is one good account that I found for the Hurtgen fight:

On November 2, the 28th Infantry Division took up the fight. The 28th was the Pennsylvania National Guard and was called the "Keystone Division" referring to their red keystone shoulder patch. So many of the Pennsylvania National Guard were to fall here that the Germans decided their name should be changed from the "Keystone Division" to the "Bloody Bucket Division," since the keystone looked somewhat like a bucket. When the 28th tried to move forward, it was like walking into hell. From their bunkers, the Germans sent forth a hail of machine-gun and rifle fire and mortars. The GIs were caught in thick minefields. Their attack stalled. For two weeks, the 28th kept attacking, as ordered.

On November 5, division sent down orders to move tanks down a road called the Kall trail. But, as usual, no staff officer had gone forward to assess the situation in person, and in fact the "trail" was solid mud blocked by felled trees and disabled tanks. The attack led only to more heavy loss of life. The 28th's lieutenants kept leading. By November 13, all the officers in the rifle companies had been killed or wounded. Most of them were within a year of their twentieth birthday. Overall in the Hurtgen, the 28th suffered 6,184 combat casualties, plus 738 cases of trench foot and 620 battle fatigue cases. Those figures meant that virtually every front-line soldier was a casualty. The 28th Division had essentially been wiped out.

I have been on a staff ride of the Kall Trail. It stands almost unchanged from those days in 1944, excepting that the trees have grown back. Amazing that anyone would try to attack down that route. Outlines of the fighting positions can still be seen, and battlefield detritous can still be picked up lying on the surface of the forest floor.

Compare these experiences with the current casualty figures from Iraq. Sort of puts things in perspective, doesn't it.

Additional Stryker Brigade Acquistions Approved ~ Bump!

Thanks for the ping!

Bump!

I think you are right on this.

I expect the army, under the new CSA, will spend its efforts on reorganization using the current equipment and the Strykers already coming on line: 17 heavy brigades (M1s, M2s, etc), 5 medium brigades (Strykers), and 11 light bdes but slowly working at how to reorganize that same equipment into 48 brigades. That would let us go to his concept of unit manning, wherein 16 brigades would be in their first year of manning--thus considered being rebuilding and not available for deployment, 16 brigades in their second year as a unit and heavy into collective training (but available for deployment as back-ups), and 16 brigades in their third year together and be the first to deploy.

I expect we will not start fielding the FCS by 2008/2010, but will instead stretch it our a few more years past that to let technology catch up. I would expect us to continue developing and fielding more information operations--C4 and ISR--equipment, and continue to work at getting to be more joint in organization, equipment, and training.

We will see....

Hi C-316

Hurtgen and Bulge....chaos for 20 squre miles one the one..and chaos over a larger margine for the 2nd.

The injuries to troop..from First Contact Recon teams in their m-10'S to large unit placement in compartment blocks spread out along a newely siezed roadway thru forested hill saw horrific injury from wood splinter and shrapnel.

To some degree this occured later on during the Bulge as German units could not move up..but had data range on nearby U.S. line strength and began to shell and mortar..hoping to see lines break.

The cold ground at Bulge afforded little cover...Hurtgen provided too much and that spelled the reason for high injury rate.

Getting the injured out of Hurtgen was another hard moment for the U.S. force projection....inured men got secondary illness from battle dressing realities...some units had so many wounded they could not move in time and were captured and marked more directly by German recon and got slaughtered.

This is the part of war that just sucks....do you disobey orders and pull back...do you jeopardize you command by reminding higher ups that your unit strength is now 40% and should be pulled to a less volitile placement.

For some..there was no where really to go during the Bulge...
At Hurtgen....alot wanted to go and get "The hell outa there"

So many stories of bravery ..holding the line with badly chopped up units.

Study of Recon force elements in Europe 44/45 is fascinating.
Like the Southern General's comment..."The Boys dander is up..they want to fight"!

I bet the Germans had a goodly respect for a troop of 5 M-10'S and halftracks...after contact was sent..the lads stayed around a bit to "Put the hurt on " if they could : )

"I think that the General Order you cite is a Pennsylvania General Order, not a federal one. Pennsylvania was the first state to organize its militia into a division organization, but I don't think that the U.S. Army recognizes this. A minor point, but since the Big Red One mafia rules, I don't think that the 28th Division will ever be granted seniority status."

The General Order is hanging in the 28th Division conference room at the Division HQ. They are very proud of that designation.

regards,