'It Is as It Was' (Peggy Noonan on the Pope's Viewing of "The Passion)

Wall Street Journal ^ | 12/17/2003 | Peggy Noonan

[VOA]

"But Billy Graham saw it and was very supportive,
and now JPII. The amazing thing is they're in agreement on the film."

Since Michael Medved and Rabbi Daniel Lapin are on-board for the film,
folks should just see the film and calmly judge for themselves:

http://www.theamericanenterprise.org/issues/articleID.17815/article_detail.asp

Myself, I think most Christians will see the film and simply ask themselves how they
would have acted as part of the crowd that demanded the release of Barrabas.
And will humbly admit they may have not chosen any more wisely than the crowd.

[Zechariah11]

Pretty decent list! Drop Hagee though. Don't forget Arno Gaebelein, Zane Hodges, and Alfred Edersheim.
Hunt and Lindsay I agree with, but they shouldn't really be on the A-List. I was glad to see you included Thomas Ice - not too many people know about him.
Doesn't it tell you alot when someone infers that these men are a "Legion" -- infering that the likes of the great Charles Spurgeon is demon posessed. But then again wasn't our Lord accused of being affiliated with demons?

[pctech]

I'd like to watch it both ways as well. First with it so I know what they're saying. I'm hoping for packed theaters. I hope this goes in much the same manner as did the Walker: Texas Ranger episode did when they mentioned that network-banned name "Jesus Christ," and not in a cursive manner.

[Campion]

Alberto Rivera was never believed because the "protestants" who investigated him went to the one source he preached against. What do you expect them to say?

Well, no, in fact, they didn't. They looked for records that Rivera said should exist. They don't. Rivera says he was a bishop. He wasn't. He said he was a Jesuit. He wasn't. He said he graduated from a particular seminary. He didn't. He said he was in specific places at specific times. His whereabouts could be checked against secular records. He wasn't where he claimed to be, he didn't do what he claimed he did, he wasn't who he said he was. He's a liar, just as Chick is a liar.

Charles Chiniquy was known as a preacher who helped start the reformation in the Bible belt in the midwest. Yes he said that jesuits killed Abraham Lincoln. Only God can knows if that one was true or not.

Charles Chiniquy was a renegade priest with moral issues, and a liar to boot.

Any idiot who bothers to read history, and isn't full of bigoted, insane foolishness, can see that John Wilkes Booth (not a Catholic, and with no known Catholic connection) killed Lincoln, and he was motivated by Confederate sympathies, not Jesuit ones. The only remote connection any of this has to Catholicism is that the conspirators met in a boarding house owned by a Catholic lady, Mary Suratt. Mrs. Suratt was executed, although all of the conspirators agreed she was innocent.

As I said, Protestantism deserves better than to be defended by liars and reprobates like Chick, Rivera, and Chiniquy.

[Zechariah11]

Apology extended on your first point.

Why apologize to someone who just branded some great champions of the faith as "legion"? Why would you ever make nice to someone like that?????

Perhaps Christ should have apologized for the hurt feelings of the Pharisees.

[pctech]

Yeah, Hagee has really dropped off the prophetic band wagon hasn't he? I really shouldn't use his name any more.

Now Gaebelein, Hodges and Edersheim I haven't heard of. You got any URL's that can link me to bio's on any of them?

Spurgeon being accused of being demon possessed? I almost fell off my chair when I read that one as well. He was probably one of the best speakers ever in the annuals of human history. Him and D.L. Moody make for some very good reading.

[ArrogantBustard]

Walker: Texas Ranger episode

??? I must assume from context that something good happened, but since I don't watch the show ...

[pctech]

Why apologize to someone who just branded some great champions of the faith as "legion"? Why would you ever make nice to someone like that?????

What kind of christian witness would we be if didn't?? Don't forget, Jesus never preached against the masses of people around Him, he always preached against the religious leaders of His day. And besides, just because we may disagree on matters of faith doesn't make any of us bad people. I've sat at a table with muslims, catholics, mormons, jehovahs witnesses, buddists, etc, but though we disagreed on principles of differing faiths didn't mean we didn't treat each other with respect. Isn't that the way it should be??

[ArrogantBustard]

You guys are championing people (Dave Hunt, Jack Chick, others) who call the Catholic Church "The Whore of Babylon", accuse her of paganism, and worse. Don't act all shocked and surprised when people express their opinions of your churches, theologians, and scholars in particularly unflattering terms. I don't normally do that, but sometimes it's necessary. Spurgeon, for example, I generally consider a heretic who, on some topics, has good points to make; a latter day Origen or Tertullian.

[ArrogantBustard]

I guess I've already made this point to you once. Sorry for the redundancy.

[Campion]

Spurgeon being accused of being demon possessed? I almost fell off my chair when I read that one as well. He was probably one of the best speakers ever in the annuals of human history.

So was Adolf Hitler. Don't confuse talent, proficiency, or charisma with righteousness.

[Zechariah11]

Alfred Edersheim's classic THE LIFE AND TIMES OF JESUS THE MESSIAH was written in 1883. It's regarded as one of the best works ever. It is a huge study on the life of Christ.
Arno Gaebelein was one of the premier conservative scholars who contributed to the Schofield Bible. He has some great insights and has edified me countless times. Zane Hodges is a contem-porary, not in the league with Edersheim, but doing a yeoman's job defending the maxim "faith alone in Christ alone" from modern Lordship salvation challenges. Arthur W. Pink's earlier works are good. He was even associated with Gaebelein for awhile. Then he got pretty deep into Lordship salvation.

[pctech]

And you my dear "person" (I don't know what gender you are) are the kind of people who come here to spill their anger and hatred, as I have been accused of doing.

Again, anyone who wanted to check on Rivera's credentials would have to go to the source who would have them. IF he was once a priest/bishop/Jesuit, and IF he went to a particular seminary, and IF he was in specific places at specific times, and IF he did claimed to do, and IF he tried to claim to be someone people said he wasn't, wouldn't it make sense for the religious organization he was from try to destroy any documented evidence and deny his claims?

Coming from an organization that has tried to cover up claims of sexual abuse of her priests (and I worked with a couple of them who were accused while in the military!) I am not surprised. And if you don't know Jack Chick why do you call him a liar? Try reading what he, and others, have to say. If you don't want to read his books, read others as outlined earlier in this thread.

Charles Chiniquy was a priest who broke away from the catholic institution at the time. If for that you label him a renegrade, well then that's what he was. Of course the same was said about Charles and John Wesley and the Methodist Episcopal movement, B.T. Roberts and the Free Methodist church, Martin Luther and the Lutheran movement, the Anabaptists, etc, etc, etc, but what the hey, lump them all in together huh? And if you accuse him of being a liar because he exposed the dealings of the priests in Chicago at that time then why not read in the papers of the era and see who's telling the truth.

And furthermore, I never mentioned John Wilkes Booth did I?? I think not.

As I said, Protestantism deserves better than to be defended by liars and reprobates like Chick, Rivera, and Chiniquy. To this all I got to is, well, there isn't much to say except, why not add the names I listed earlier and see if that statement stands up.

[Zechariah11]

Please do not respond to him.

[pctech]

You guys are championing people (Dave Hunt, Jack Chick, others) who call the Catholic Church "The Whore of Babylon", accuse her of paganism, and worse. Don't act all shocked and surprised when people express their opinions of your churches, theologians, and scholars in particularly unflattering terms.

Thing is, you're right about that. There are protestant leaders who need the same message leveled at them as I've mentioned here.

I guess I should clarify myself when talking about the "Whore of Babylon" because that religious entity will consist of all church groups during the tribulation at that time. Rome will only be the figurative head. The ecumenical movement is device being used to gather the churches in even now. So when I talk about the "Whore" and mention Rome, that "lady" will be as I've heard it said "apostate Rome and fallen churches at the time of the Rapture."

[Campion]

And you my dear "person" (I don't know what gender you are) are the kind of people who come here to spill their anger and hatred

I'll admit that I hate lies and love the truth. Guilty as charged.

Again, anyone who wanted to check on Rivera's credentials would have to go to the source who would have them. IF he was once a priest/bishop/Jesuit, and IF he went to a particular seminary, and IF he was in specific places at specific times, and IF he did claimed to do, and IF he tried to claim to be someone people said he wasn't, wouldn't it make sense for the religious organization he was from try to destroy any documented evidence and deny his claims?

I knew that was coming! It's the classic "the dog ate my homework" non-falsifiable argument. Awesome!

So if there's evidence that Rivera was any of the things he claimed to be, or in any of the places he said he was, he's telling the truth. And if there's no evidence that Rivera was any of the things he claimed to be, or in any of the places he said he was, he's still telling the truth, because the "roman catholic institution" [sic] destroyed all the evidence that would have proven he was telling the truth!!

By the way, did I mention to you that everyone you ever knew was a Reptoid space alien from the planet Zeta Reticuli 4? Of course, I can't prove it, because the conspiracy destroyed all the evidence ... so just trust me, okay?

[pctech]

Ouch, that was below the belt. Spurgeon was a great man of God and should never be used in the same sentence as Adoph Hitler. You sir are very blind of the facts.

[Campion]

Try reading what he, and others, have to say.

Incredibly ... I have. That's why I know he's a liar.

[pctech]

Interesting, I'm going to have to make notes of all these names before I forget them. Old age does have it's drawbacks, if one considers 43 old.

[cyncooper]

Why don't you ping the person you are referring to instead of gossiping about him without extending that courtesy?

I suppose you are feeling full of piety, judging from your tone, but you are far from persuasive.