It's our last show of the year,
and we're going out with a bang...
Special Guest
Kenneth Timmerman
will be discussing his latest book!
Radio FreeRepublic is sponsored by the FreeRepublic Network.
Posted on 12/16/2003 1:15:09 PM PST by PeaRidge
Sorry about the sister. Did the moose call from inside the house? I wouldn't want to be contributing to an urban legend ;o)
I went back as far as 1828 and the The South Carolina "Exposition", drafted secretly by Vice-President John C. Calhoun, and presented to the state's House of Representatives on 19 December 1828 by a special committee charged with formulating a response to the federal protective tariff passed earlier that year.
"We cultivate certain great staples for the supply of the general market of the world; and they manufacture almost exclusively for the home market. Their object in the Tariff is to keep down foreign competition, in order to obtain a monopoly of the domestic market. The effect on us is to compel us to purchase at a higher price, both what we purchase from them and from others, without receiving a corresponding increase of price for what we sell. The price, at which we can afford to cultivate, must depend on the price at which we receive our supplies. The lower the latter, the lower we may dispose of our products with profit; and in the same degree our capacity of meeting competition is increased; on the contrary, the higher the price of our supplies, the less the profit at the same price, and the less consequently the capacity for meeting competition. . . . The case then, fairly stated between us and the manufacturing States, is, that the Tariff gives them a prohibition against foreign competition in our own market, in the sale of their goods, and deprives us of the benefit of a competition of purchasers for our raw material. They who say, that they cannot compete with foreigners at their own doors without an advantage of nearly fifty per cent., expect us to meet them abroad, under a disadvantage equal to their encouragement. But the oppression, great as it is to us, will not stop at this point. The trade between us and Europe, has heretofore been a mutual exchange of products. Under the existing duties, the consumption of European fabrics must in a great measure cease in our country, and the trade must become, on their part a cash transaction. But he must be ignorant of the principals of commerce, and the policy of Europe, particularly England, who does not see, that it is impossible to carry on a trade of such vast extent on any other basis but that of mutual exchange of products; and if it were not impossible, such a trade would not long be tolerated. We already see indications of the commencement of a commercial warfare, the termination of which cannot be conjectured, though our fate may easily be. The last remains of our great and once flourishing agriculture must be annihilated in the conflict. In the first instance we will be thrown on the home market, which cannot consume a fourth of our products; and instead of supplying the world, as we should with a free trade, we shall be compelled to abandon the cultivation of three-fourths of what we now raise, and receive for the residue, whatever the manufacturers, (who will then have their policy consummated, by the entire possession of their market, both exports and imports,) may choose to give.
Forced with an immense sacrifice of capital to abandon our ancient and favourite pursuit, to which our soil, climate, habits and peculiar labor are adapted, we should be compelled without experience or skill, and with a population untried in such pursuits, to attempt to become the rivals instead of the customers of the manufacturing States. The result is not doubtful. If they, by superior capital and skill, should keep down successful competition on our part, we should be doomed to toil at our unprofitable agriculture, selling at the prices, which a single and limited market might give. But on the other hand, if our necessity should triumph over their capital and skill, if, instead of raw cotton, we should ship to the manufacturing States, cotton yarn, and cotton goods, the thoughtful must see, that it would immediately bring about a state of things, which could not long continue. Those who now make war on our gains would then make it on our labour. They would not tolerate, that those, who now cultivate our plantations and furnish them with the material and market for the products of their arts, should, by becoming their rivals, take bread out of the mouths of their wives and children. The committee will not pursue this painful subject, but as they clearly see, that the system if not arrested, must bring the country to this hazardous extremity, neither prudence nor patriotism would permit them to pass it by, without giving warning of an event so full of danger. . . .
No government based on the naked principle, that the majority ought to govern, however true the maxim in its proper sense and under proper restrictions, ever preserved its liberty, even for a single generation. The history of all has been the same, injustice, violence and anarchy, succeeded by the government of one, or a few, under which the people seek refuge, from the more oppressive despotism of the majority. Those governments only, which provide checks, which limit and restrain within proper bounds the power of the majority, have had a prolonged existence, and been distinguished for virtue, power and happiness. Constitutional government, and the government of the majority, are utterly incompatible, it being the sole purpose of a constitution to impose limitations and checks upon the majority. An unchecked majority, is a despotism--and government is free, and will be permanent in proportion to the number, complexity and efficiency of the checks, by which it powers are controlled. . . .
That there exists a case which would justify the interposition of this State, and thereby compel the General Government to abandon an unconstitutional power, or to make an appeal to the amending power to confer it by express grant, the committee does not in the least doubt; and they are equally clear in the existence of a necessity to justify its exercise, if the General Government should continue to persist in its improper assumption of powers, belonging to the State; which brings them to the last point which they propose to consider. When would it be proper to exercise this high power? If they were to judge only by the magnitude of the interest and urgency of the case, they would without hesitation recommend the exercise of this power without delay. But they deeply feel the obligation of respect for the other members of the confederacy, and of great moderation and forbearance in the exercise, even of the most unquestionable right, between parties who stand connected by the closest and most sacred political union. With these sentiments, they deem it advisable after presenting the views of the Legislature in this solemn manner, to allow time for further consideration and reflection, in the hope that a returning sense of justice on the part of the majority, when they have come to reflect on the wrongs, which this and other staple States have suffered, and are suffering, may repeal the obnoxious and unconstitutional acts, and thereby prevent the necessity of interposing the sovereign power of this State.
The committee is further induced at this time to take this course, under the hope that the great political revolution which will displace from power on the 4th of March next, those who acquired authority by setting the will of the people at defiance; and which will bring in an eminent citizen, [Andrew Jackson,] distinguished for his services to his country and his justice and patriotism, may be followed up under his influence with a complete restoration of the pure principles of our government.
But in thus recommending delay, the committee wish it to be distinctly understood, that neither doubts of the power of the State, nor apprehension of consequences, constitute the smallest part of their motives. . . .
With these views the committee are solemnly of impression if the system be persevered in, after due forbearance on the part of the State, that it will be her sacred duty to interpose her veto; a duty to herself, to the Union, to present, and to future generations, and to the cause of liberty over the world, to arrest the progress of a power, which, if not arrested, must in its consequences, corrupt the public morals, and destroy the liberty of the country."
excerpted
Trouble was brewing as early as 1828.
They actually traced the call to the Dallas Book depository... you see, this was all before I was born in 1962. I rely on my parents to fill me in on the details over wine and cheese.
Don't need people thinking I'm any older than I already feel.
Northern states were given no special protection or largess by the tariffs. Exactly the same was available to any southerner who decided to start a factory and actually make something. Southerners chose not to do so.
Your whole argument strikes me as much like those today who claim that minorities who choose not to study hard and therefore earn less are being disrciminated against.
BTW, I've been looking for some time for the records of the 1860 Congressional election. What would have been the party breakdown in Congress if the South had not seceded?
My expectation is that it was such that opponents of Republicans, all southerners and northern Democrats, would have held a significant majority, making it impossible for the Republicans to vote in the Morill tariff. If I understand correctly, they were unable to pass it as it was until a lot of southern representatives left when their states seceded.
Lincoln could not have done anything to the South against an anti-Republican majority in Congress.
It's certainly true that some Northerners, especially iron founders in Pennsylvania and Ohio, were very strongly protariff. So were Southern sugar and hemp growers. But it certainly wasn't hard for astute Southern politicians to keep their protariff colleagues at bay. There were natural splits between Northern constituencies that it wouldn't have been hard to exploit.
The tariff was bound to increase in the 1860s. It was felt necessary to raise tariffs to cover the government's expenses, and encourage domestic economic growth at a time of depression. We can argue with the economics behind this today. But Southern congressional leaders could have strongly influenced the size duration of the increase if they weren't so preoccupied with the slavery question and secession.
Alexander Stephens addressed this question in his November 14, 1860 speech to the Georgia Legislature:
The next evil that my friend complained of, was the Tariff. Well, let us look at that for a moment. About the time I commenced noticing public matters, this question was agitating the country almost as fearfully as the Slave question now is. In 1832, when I was in college, South Carolina was ready to nullify or secede from the Union on this account. And what have we seen? The tariff no longer distracts the public councils. Reason has triumphed. The present tariff was voted for by Massachusetts and South Carolina. The lion and the lamb lay down together-- every man in the Senate and House from Massachusetts and South Carolina, I think, voted for it, as did my honorable friend himself. And if it be true, to use the figure of speech of my honorable friend, that every man in the North, that works in iron and brass and wood, has his muscle strengthened by the protection of the government, that stimulant was given by his vote, and I believe every other Southern man. So we ought not to complain of that.
[Mr. Toombs: That tariff lessened the duties.]
[Mr. Stephens: [Yes, and Massachusetts, with unanimity, voted with the South to lessen them, and they were made just as low as Southern men asked them to be, and those are the rates they are now at. If reason and argument, with experience, produced such changes in the sentiments of Massachusetts from 1832 to 1857, on the subject of the tariff, may not like changes be effected there by the same means, reason and argument, and appeals to patriotism on the present vexed question? And who can say that by 1875 or 1890, Massachusetts may not vote with South Carolina and Georgia upon all those questions that now distract the country and threaten its peace and existence? I believe in the power and efficiency of truth, in the omnipotence of truth, and its ultimate triumph when properly wielded.
Today, some people want to resurrect Calhoun as a libertarian icon. Yet it shouldn't be forgotten that Calhoun saw slavery as a "positive good," and slavery of part of the population as an important or even necesary safeguard of freedom for the other:
I hold that in the present state of civilization, where two races of different origin, and distinguished by color, and other physical differences, as well as intellectual, are brought together, the relation now existing in the slaveholding States between the two, is, instead of an evil, a good—a positive good. I feel myself called upon to speak freely upon the subject where the honor and interests of those I represent are involved. I hold then, that there never has yet existed a wealthy and civilized society in which one portion of the community did not, in point of fact, live on the labor of the other. Broad and general as is this assertion, it is fully borne out by history. This is not the proper occasion, but, if it were, it would not be difficult to trace the various devices by which the wealth of all civilized communities has been so unequally divided, and to show by what means so small a share has been allotted to those by whose labor it was produced, and so large a share given to the non-producing classes. The devices are almost innumerable, from the brute force and gross superstition of ancient times, to the subtle and artful fiscal contrivances of modern. I might well challenge a comparison between them and the more direct, simple, and patriarchal mode by which the labor of the African race is, among us, commanded by the European. I may say with truth, that in few countries so much is left to the share of the laborer, and so little exacted from him, or where there is more kind attention paid to him in sickness or infirmities of age. Compare his condition with the tenants of the poor houses in the more civilized portions of Europe—look at the sick, and the old and infirm slave, on one hand, in the midst of his family and friends, under the kind superintending care of his master and mistress, and compare it with the forlorn and wretched condition of the pauper in the poorhouse. But I will not dwell on this aspect of the question; I turn to the political; and here I fearlessly assert that the existing relation between the two races in the South, against which these blind fanatics are waging war, forms the most solid and durable foundation on which to rear free and stable political institutions. It is useless to disguise the fact. There is and always has been in an advanced stage of wealth and civilization, a conflict between labor and capital. The condition of society in the South exempts us from the disorders and dangers resulting from this conflict; and which explains why it is that the political condition of the slaveholding States has been so much more stable and quiet than that of the North. -- John C. Calhoun, February 6, 1837
Many in the South once believed that it [slavery] was a moral and political evil. That folly and delusion are gone. We see it now in its true light, and regard it as the most safe and stable basis for free institutions in the world. It is impossible with us that the conflict can take place between labor and capital, which makes it so difficult to establish and maintain free institutions in all wealthy and highly civilized nations where such institutions as ours do not exist. The Southern States are an aggregate, in fact, of communities, not of individuals. Every plantation is a little community, with the master at its head, who concentrates in himself the united interests of capital and labor, of which he is the common representative. These small communities aggregated make the State in all, whose action, labor, and capital is equally represented and perfectly harmonized. Hence the harmony, the union, the stability of that section, which is rarely disturbed, except through the action of this Government. The blessing of this state of things extends beyond the limits of the South. It makes that section the balance of the system; the great conservative power, which prevents other portions, less fortunately constituted, from rushing into conflict. . . . Such are the institutions which these deluded madmen are stirring heaven and earth to destroy, and which we are called on to defend by the highest and most solemn obligations that can be imposed on us as men and patriots. -- John C. Calhoun, January 12, 1838
One can imagine how Northerners felt on reading Calhoun's celebrations of slavery as an underpinning for republican liberty. Or how they reacted to subsequent Southern politicians passionate desire for the expansion of slavery.
On the question of what sparked secession, it seems likely that the defense of slavery was the primary motivation, at least for the Deep South states that went first. Secession was already in the works before the tariff bill was passed. Indeed, some firebrands saw secession as inevitable and desireable long before Lincoln's election.
There's an interesting hypothetical question: what if Southerners had held fast on the tariff and demanded low tariffs as the price of union? Of course it can't be answered. I'd like to think they'd have gotten their way, especially if they made their demand in private. What Northerner or unionist would put national unity at risk for the protectionist program? But the tariff wasn't a major priority for Southern elites. The most militant Southerners were already on their way out the door, and their new country was already becoming a reality.
As for Calhoun the libertarian, to take him as a model for libertarianism makes a hash of that philosophy. If we can or must overlook his pro-slavery stand, the protectionist views of other political figures surely shouldn't be held against them, either.
First and Second World Wars. Korean War. Russian Civil War. Viet Nam War. Cambodian Civil War. First, Second, and Third Indian-Pakistani Wars. War of the Roses. Shall I continue?
Because they couldn't get a decent price for their goods without shelling out to the North (who depended on slave labor, too!)? Because profit margins were so low that they had to have huge operations or run at subsistance levels?
No and no. Plantation agriculture was very profitable for the southern aristocracy. Their profit margins in the 10 years leading up to the war had never been higher.
Manumission was gaining ground in the South, it is far cheaper to hire someone and let them fend for themselves than to be the owner and have to provide housing, clothing, food, medical care, etc.
I would be interested in seeing what evidence you have to support this. Something from the leaders of the times would be nice.
When the reason for your rebellion is the continued subjugation of almost four million people then I suggest that you lose a bit of your moral argument. Still, was the defense of an institution that all y'all keep insisting was dying worth a million lives?
Who was talking about Lincoln? From the Northern standpoint it was never about slavery, merely combatting the rebellion and preserving the Union. On the southern side, however, defense of the institution of slavery was the prime motivation for the southern rebellion, and remained so until the very end. So while the Lincoln Administration 'took slavery out of the picture, as you say, the Davis regime did not.
The term "back country" as it applies to British America, would refer to the interior portions of the colonies, from Pennsylvainia down to the Carolinas. Of the four waves of English emmigration to British America, those who settled in the back country came last, and tended to be from the north border country of Britian, Scotland, and northern Ireland. They gravitated toward and in many cases were encouraged to settle the back country or frontier portions of the colonies.
I believe you'll find that Jefferson, Washington, Madison, Patrick Henry, Mr Lee, and George Mason were Southerners and all were important contributors to the founding concepts.
I think it would be more accurate to say they were all Virginians, and with the possible exception of Patrick Henry were products of the aristocratic tidewater culture.
I also acknowledge the contributions of (especially) Benjamin Franklin, as well as the Adams', Hancock, and others.
And many others, as we both well know.
Why do Northerners feel it is necessary to denigrate the South? Or is it that you can't accept that Southerners were simply tired of getting screwed by the very government they had helped found?
From your response I take you weren't thinking about the tidewater aristocracy when you used the term, but that is the cultural background of virtually all of the southern founders. When you claim that a particular culture by and large wrote the Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence, you'd better be prepared to explain (and defend) what culture you're talking about.
Most southerners on these threads tend to disavow a connection to the southern tidewater aristocracy, preferring to embrace the back country (or upcountry) yeomen as their prototype ancestor. Which is fine except that this group was not the culture that our southern founding fathers sprang from. This group was not much interested in participating in the noble experiment of democracy, and they were not represented well amongst the men who came together in New York and Philidelphia to create this great nation.
[G] Explain why Southern independence was so bad...
[NS] Slavery this, slavery that, on and on...
[G] Slavery was not cause according to Lincoln (others)
[NS] Who's talking about Lincoln?
Innumerable threads on FR are proof that is still unlikely to happen. And it's been a looooong time.
Bingo. Notice the concerted efforts by the usual set of suspects, trying change the topic of this thread to one more to their liking? Its a bit like listening to spare change circulate in a clothes dryer (repetitious, annoying, and ultimately not worth very much).
Cheers
So you're one of those annoying people who yells "Bingo" to hear everyone groan, then follows up with "Just kidding"
I cited the Lincoln as an authority on why the North prosecuted the war. Since he was essentially the one prosecuting the war, I assumed he would know. Since both of you are normally defending him, I thought he might be an authority that you'd accept. Perhaps you fell for Non's diversion, but I didn't.
So here, we will try it again for the third time now:
The unionists who prosecuted the war did not give a fig about ending slavery. With this in mind, attempt to generate a coherent (I know, it will be difficult for you) response outlining why Southern Independence had to be stopped. On your marks, get set, GO (x3 now)!
It's our last show of the year,
and we're going out with a bang...
Special Guest
Kenneth Timmerman
will be discussing his latest book!
Radio FreeRepublic is sponsored by the FreeRepublic Network.
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