Defective firearms go unchecked (Pt 1 of 4 of gun grab special reports - what a hatchet job)

Detroit Spews..uh..News ^ | 12-14-03 | Melvin Claxton

[King Prout]

exactly.
one very minor quibble: I was taught that Rule#1 was "the gun is always loaded" and Rule#2 was "don't point a gun at anything you do not intend to shoot"

[Shooter 2.5]

It is a continuing annoyance to see people messing around with the safety rules. The four that have been developed over the years suffice entirely as now stated. There is no need for more, and we really cannot get by with fewer. However, some half-educated enthusiasts keep trying to make up a new set, or to add or subtract, which does nothing but serve to confuse matters. A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded. This leads to disaster, yet we hear it all the time. Sometimes it appears we become so obsessed with the ephemeral goal of safety that we lose sight of the purpose of the exercise. Safety is not first. Safety is second. Victory (or success) is first.
Col. Jeff Cooper

[Shooter 2.5]

* All firearms are loaded. - There are no exceptions. Don't pretend that this is true. Know that it is and handle all firearms accordingly. Do not believe it when someone says: "It isn't loaded."
* Never let the muzzle of a firearm point at anything you are not willing to destroy. - If you would not want to see a bullet hole in it do not allow a firearm's muzzle to point at it.
* Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. - Danger abounds if you keep your finger on the trigger when you are not about to shoot. Speed is not gained by prematurely placing your finger on the trigger as bringing a firearm to bear on a target takes more time than it takes to move your finger to the trigger.
* Be sure of your target and what is behind it. - Never shoot at sounds or a target you cannot positively identify. Know what is in line with the target and what is behind it (bullets are designed to go through things). Be aware of your surroundings whether on a range, in the woods, or in a potentially lethal conflict.

[vladog]

Its not the defective weapon, its the defective person who has the weapon, that's a problem.

[supercat]

What a moronic statement. It has been well known for over 160 years, since Sam Colt invented the revolver, that you always have the hammer over an empty chamber. You load five in a sixshooter.

On NAA revolvers, the cylinder is designed so that the hammer may be lowered between cylinders. Anyone know when that feature was invented? Seems like an obvious improvement to increase a gun's usable capacity with minimal extra cost and no downside that I can see.

[supercat]

* All firearms are loaded. - There are no exceptions.

If that were true it would be rather difficult to field-strip a Glock.

I will accept that firearms should be presumed capable of reloading themselves any time they are set down, and should be kept pointed in a safe direction even when you can see into the chamber, but if a Glock can't be unloaded with enough confidence to allow pulling the trigger, how can it be field-stripped?

[Dan from Michigan]

I think "Hatchet Job" is a fair warning.

[Inyo-Mono]

Colt first added safety "pins' between the chambers on Colt's revolver cylinders for the hammer to rest on in the 1840s (Dragoons, Navys, and pocket guns) . The pins had a tendency to wear out after time. Remington improved on the idea with 1858 Beals Model .44 which feature actual notches between the chambers which the hammer could rest in.

Having owned, carried and shot replicas of all of the above cap-n-ball revolvers I can say that the Remington was of superior design, and indeed was the forerunner of all modern revolvers including the famous Colt .45 "Peacemaker" first introduced in 1873.

[Shooter 2.5]

There's just some things that can't be explained to some people so I guess you'll have to figure it out for yourself.

[Swordmaker]

On NAA revolvers, the cylinder is designed so that the hammer may be lowered between cylinders. Anyone know when that feature was invented?

That feature existed on the 1847 Colt Walker... and all percussion Colt's that followed.

[supercat]

Having owned, carried and shot replicas of all of the above cap-n-ball revolvers I can say that the Remington was of superior design, and indeed was the forerunner of all modern revolvers including the famous Colt .45 "Peacemaker" first introduced in 1873.

If the feature existed so long ago, why didn't it become universal for revolvers (at least those without transfer-bar or other such trigger safeties)? Is there any downside to it? To be sure, once such a firearm is cocked, care must be taken when decocking to re-rotate the cylinder so that the hammer lies between chambers, but such a level of care would be no less necessary on a five-loaded six-shooter. So any idea why the feature isn't universal?

[Inyo-Mono]

Good question. Those large caliber .44 revolvers were mainly designed for the cavalry and were carried into combat fully loaded, i.e., all six chambers, on by horseback which increased the chance of a weapon falling to the ground and discharging. Thus the notches in the cylinder provided some margin of safety.

Nonetheless, when Civil War veterans went West after the war, the vast majority purchased these .44s for their stopping power against Indians and thieves and it was common knowledge at the time that the only safe carry was the hammer on an empty chamber, a practice which all gun manufacturers recommend to this today.

[supercat]

Nonetheless, when Civil War veterans went West after the war, the vast majority purchased these .44s for their stopping power against Indians and thieves and it was common knowledge at the time that the only safe carry was the hammer on an empty chamber, a practice which all gun manufacturers recommend to this today.

Right, but is there any way in which (1) it's safer to carry with the hammer over an empty chamber than between chambers, or (2) allowing the revolver to be 'parked' between chambers adds measurably to the cost of manufacturing a revolver?

[TC Rider]

Unlike the auto and other industries, gun makers are left to police themselves. Most treat safety features as optional, placing an unsuspecting public at risk.

With more than 190 million guns scattered across the country in 35 percent of all homes, just about every community is affected.

At least 9,485 people were killed — and another 127,000 wounded — in unintentional shootings from 1993 to 2001.

This is so easy..

9,485 divided by 8 years is 1185 gun deaths per year.

How many unintentional killings were committed by evil cars in that period?

It's clear to me that the auto industry must be divested of all regulation and legal harrasment as the gun industry, only then will we see a reduction in auto deaths to rival the gun industry!

[Inyo-Mono]

Before the invention of the tranfer bar safety system in revolvers first introduced by Iver Johnson in the 1890s (see picture) the hammer over an empty chamber or on the notches between chambers were the only safe way to carry a revolver. I can only speculate that with the dimise of the cavalry and the need to carry a fully loaded revolver on horseback with the hammer resting in a notch, that most sane folks carried with the hammer on an empty chamber.

When the hammer is on a notch the hand is not fully engaged and the cylinder can accidently spin into battery if the handler is careless. With the hammer over an empty chamber the cylinder is locked into place and cannot spin to a live round with being at least half cocked, much safer than notches on the cylinder. I do not know the added expense to a manufacturer of the tooling for notches cut into a cylinder.

[Inyo-Mono]

Here is a closeup of the "safety notches" between the chambers of a cylinder on an 1863 Remington .44 cal New Model Army revolver.

[supercat]

When the hammer is on a notch the hand is not fully engaged and the cylinder can accidently spin into battery if the handler is careless.

I would expect that would be so on a typical revolver, although it would seem trivial to add the notches to lock the cylinder in place. Alternatively, on revolver designs were the cylinder face is flat without counter-sinks for the cartridge rims, I would think that it should be possible to design the hammer tip on a revolver so as to fit between two installed cartridges. To be sure, the cylinder could still rotate to an empty chamber, but that would seem pretty harmless.

[Travis McGee]

GEEEZ! Guns are dangerous in the hands of children with no gun safety training, and foolish adults!

Who knew??

[Smokin' Joe]

Yep.

Never point the gun at anything you do not want to shoot.

Always assume the gun is loaded. Personally check the chamber, then continue to handle the gun as if the gun is loaded. (Make papa nervous, watch everyone else shoot. You are done for the day.)

Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.

Never, ever, rely on a safety to keep the gun from discharging.

[nightdriver]

"The gun’s design increases the possibility of accidents because the safety — the main feature that prevents unintentional discharges — has to be turned off when the gun is being unloaded, experts say."

It's obvious that Mr. Claxton has very superficial, if any, knowledge of guns at all.

A "saftey" is the most dangerous thing to have on any firearm. Safety is between the ears, not on the gun. Any firearm can be handled safely with proper instruction, practice and correct attitude.