On-Star Online to U.S. Government

Bob Barr Website ^ | 12-01-03 | Bob Barr

[stuartcr]

Can you opt to stop paying for the service, or is it a contract?

[Smogger]

No your current DBS system cannot transmist information back, unless you have the phoneline plugged in.

[Smogger]

First generation OnStar units used a 5 watt AMPS phone with a simple 103 AFSK modem and a GPS. The car could be called and a command sent to retrieve the GPS or unlock the doors. I haven't seen the hardware for the current OnStar devices, but I'm certain it includes a new CDMA cellular phone, an in-band modem whose supplier shall remain nameless and a GPS. In addition, the new OnStar gear has access to the vehicle networks to permit door unlock and query of the diagnostic modules (similar to what a service shop can do). Remote engine diagnostics capability is interesting to fleet owners. Ditto for the theft recovery. Most people buy OnStar for roadside assistance.

Well if the first generation used an AMPS cellphone then you could listen to it with you modified scanner. It was hardly secure and wouldn't require the goverment to erect their own "cell" to listen to your communications. I am sure the latest revision intergrates with the vehicles OBDII compliant computer. Combine that with a GPS and they know everything about you and you car. When and where you were going how fast you were driving. How often you stopped to get gas. If you overrevved your engine etc. I work in the vehicle Diagnostics industry but before that I was a "hacker"

[Smogger]

Wasn't the governmnt pushing for an OBD-III standard that would pretty much incorperate the CDMA and a full emissions/performance monitoring system?

Yes. OBDIII would let them remotely shut off your vehicle for violation the Clean Air Act. ;-) You would get a warning that you vehicle required service because it was exceeding the emissions limits for your jurisdiction. After a while they could just shut your car off if you continued to be in violation. Sccaary.

[kerouacbal]

This is no big deal when you think about how all telecommunication switches have been manufactured with a built in taping device. It is no big secret that the government can listen in to every phone call made from anywhere on the planet to another. They have access to every telecommunication companies switch's with the companies knowledge. If you don't know what a switch is I'll tell you. A switch is a device that hold information on all phone #'s in it and has a connection to every other switch in the globe thru other switches. When you make a phone call from you house you get dial tone from a switch. When you punch in the # you want to call the switch makes a connection from it's self to the switch that holds the # you are calling. Do you have caller ID? If so as a telecommunication employee I can turn that on and off you in the switch with your #. The government can tap in thru a monitor port in the switch without you knowing. There is not even a way for you to find out if they are taping you. Don't think those devices you can hook up to your phone line can detect it. They can't. This is not what you have seen in moves where a tech hooks up alligator clips to a connection box. This type of taping is completely undetectable. The same is true for the internet since the connections to the web are thru phone lines. And again there is no easy out like "I have a cable or satellite modem". Your cable or satellite company has it's own connection to the internet thru guess what? A switch. I believe if you do a little research you will find that in the late 80's or early 90's the French government advised the world that the USA's NSA has the capability to listen to every call made in the world. The NSA does not have the most powerful computer on the planet with out a reason.

[Myrddin]

The OnStar GPS doesn't track you in real time. You must make a voice connection to the car and transmit a query command via the inband modem to query the location. I'll bet the OBDII queries are limited to a few specific diagnostic locations. The bandwidth on OBDII just isn't high enough to monitor a wide variety of items in an operating vehicle without impacting the performance of the necessary message passing.

Have you seen any indication of a wholesale switch to CAN bus? Many of the manufacturers that my group has been assisting over the past couple years seem to be switching to CAN in favor of the multiple variants of J1850.

[Myrddin]

I believe if you do a little research you will find that in the late 80's or early 90's the French government advised the world that the USA's NSA has the capability to listen to every call made in the world. The NSA does not have the most powerful computer on the planet with out a reason.

Do a little more research and you'll find out the NSA doesn't have the most powerful computer on the planet. What they do have is people inside the crypto shops that planted hardwired private keys that ensured NSA could decrypt anything they deemed necessary. The absence of security is not because of incompetent cryptographic algorithms. The backdoors are placed there intentionally.

[DManA]

I...can...read...your...lips......dave.

We need to starting practicing up on sign language, I guess :')

[HeadOn]

Well - they gave me a year for free, in which time I never used it, and then I just didn't renew. They contacted me by mail, but I just did what I do with all junk mail...

I suppose if you don't want it, and the new car you want has it, just tell the dealer you won't pay for it. There is an electronics package in the trunk they can just remove and use elsewhere, or they may just not activate it.

[Smogger]

All of the emissions inspection equipment I am writing software for now include a CAN interface. Hopefully going to a standardized communication interface/protocol will relieve the myriad connectivity problems OBDII suffered from with each manufacturer relying on their own protocol. But I doubt it. Most State I/M programs are have revised their regs to require CAM. For example the OBDII program starting in PA will requires CAM capable analyzers.

[Smogger]

Oopps. CAM = CAN..

heheh.. a CAM is a Control Access Module on a DBS satellite system. What was I thinking about? ;-)

[MizzouTigerRepublican]

On the vehicle I was looking at it came with the vehicle. Some of their cheaper SUV's have it as an option. You get it for free for 1 year on the Escolade and after that you would have to subscribe to the service monthly.

[stuartcr]

Thanks

[stuartcr]

Thanks

[oceanview]

that must be true. how would the FBI activate the microphone in the car? unless the claim is that some "secret backdoor" codes can be sent to the device to activate it.

[ovrtaxt]

The grocery cards are an interesting thing. By law, they cannot require any personal information in return for a discount qualification. You have a right to refuse to fill out the information sheet in order to get their card, and they have to give it to you. Federal law.

[kerouacbal]

Check it out again. Crane super computer builds their computer system. The last time they upgraded the released the system specs of their old computer and it was the most powerful computer even seen. There computers were linked together by coax cables witch was unheard of at the time. Some computer experts believe the old reason for them to have upgraded is because they have a new system linked fir fiber optics. Most private computer manufactures are still trying to make a fiber optic computer that is viable.
The backdoors are placed there intentionally
If you did read my full post you would of seen the comment that the telecommunications switches have built in ports for just that type of connections.

[StriperSniper]

"No, Observer," said Grendibal sharply. "You will not do this.The people on Terminus know where you are. You have a hyper-relay on your ship which you cannot remove, have you not?"

"Yes Speaker."

"...Your hyper-rely will tell Terminus that you have left for a specific point hundreds of parsecs away and returned..." -Asimov, Foundation's Edge

The future of Onstar.

;-)

[Myrddin]

The backdoors are placed there intentionally If you did read my full post you would of seen the comment that the telecommunications switches have built in ports for just that type of connections.

You apparently don't understand what is meant by a "backdoor". NSA has inserted code that permits them to extract the crypto key and decrypt data using an ordinary level of computing power. The crypto is not being broken by means of massive, brute force techniques.

Just because a computer employs fiber optic connections does not mean it is a "fiber optic" computer. Fiber optics are often used for classified interconnections because they do not radiate signals. I've installed fiber optic connections between Tempest workstations and remote classified computers at SHAPE in Belgium.

It is no surprise that agencies can extract a DS0 stream from a DACS switch in the central office to tap a conversation undetected. That is 1980 technology.

[Myrddin]

how would the FBI activate the microphone in the car? unless the claim is that some "secret backdoor" codes can be sent to the device to activate it.

The mechanism is pretty simple. On the OnStar units, the CDMA cell phone has to "auto-answer" the phone to open the voice path. Once answered, the inband modem has bi-directional access to the voice path. Commands are sent to the onboard processor to perform functions such as unlocking a door or fetching the current GPS LAT/LON. The command set can easily accomodate an command to mute audio output to the car interior and switch on a microphone. It is probably already implemented as a means of allowing an OnStar agent to communicate with an injured party who can not push the buttons. Air bag deployment initiates a call to the OnStar emergency number.