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To: Sabertooth
You entered this thread because of the Free Republic Network's connections to Grover Norquist.

That is correct. I actually know this guy. Not well, but I know him. So this is not just a Keyboard Cowboy exercise for me. I care about this. I want to know the truth here.

I've heard all this stuff. Frank Gaffney stands outside the meeting room on Wednesdays and hands out his materials. I've read them. People take that stuff and walk right into the meeting with Grover Norquist. David Keene; David Frum; Chuck Muth; people from the White House; the Senate; the House; the Pentagon; the Cato Institute; the Heritage Foundation; the NRA; people running for office from all over the country. They walk right past Frank Gaffney and into Grover's meeting. That is what I see.

You said I'm in over my depth. I said it first. I admit it: I'm a Washington newbie. I just moved here a year ago. I don't do this for a living. I don't have "connections." I'm just some Freeper who's there on a volunteer basis once a week (and not every week) to hear what's going on, and to occasionally let people know what we're doing.

I have no idea what to think about a pissing contest between Frank Gaffney and Grover Norquist. I look around and it doesn't look to me like "old Washington hands" are paying much attention to Frank. If Grover Norquist is about to be arrested as a traitor to the United States, there are going to be a whole bunch of people who were sitting at his table the week before (I don't rate a seat at the table, BTW) who will be pretty embarrassed about that. So if I, a mere newbie, were to take my cues from people who have been around here a lot longer than I have, I would not pay a whole lot of attention to Frank Gaffney on this issue. People tell me he really is a big-time expert on defense stuff, and I have no reason to doubt that. But no one is acting as though he's an expert on this.

I thought it would probably have to stay there, because... how the hell am I ever gonna find out what the truth is here? And then, lo and behold, our Mystery Correspondent shows up right here on Free Republic. This is terrific. This is more time than David Frum has had with the guy.

So I listen to all this stuff. And I poke the guy. And I try to piss him off, to see what he does and where the smoke comes out. Because for me, this is a big puzzle. This man claims to have this big file of facts that means "X", where "X" is something that should have cleaned out that conference room a long time ago. But it hasn't.

I figure most people in that room are in the same state I'm in: they don't know what to believe about this. And they aren't in any position to call up the White House and poke around to find out. "So tell me Karl, were you and Grover running a honey pot, or are you guys traitors?" But some people in that room are capable of making those kinds of phone calls. And I observe them sitting at the table with Grover Norquist.

After watching how the smoke comes out when this guy starts to rant, I think I understand better now why the old Washington hands are not running for the exits.

Let me close by saying that it may turn out that Frank Gaffney is a hero for exposing all this. I can't rule that out. But I have to go with what I see, which is that after an initial period of considerable alarm about these charges, some very well-connected people with impeccable reputations have returned to Norquist's table. That is what I see. And when granted an opporunity to poke it at myself, I found it necessary to keep adding more and more windage as time went on, to account for personal animosity as the thing driving this effort. So in the end, I choose not to join you at the necktie party.

And on that note, I think I will get out of your way here so you can convince all these other fine people that Grover Norquist is a terrsymp dupe or worse, and that I am his shill. Do your worst.

719 posted on 12/17/2003 11:43:45 AM PST by Nick Danger (With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.)
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To: Nick Danger
Did you read the New Republic article on Grover from November 2001?

GROVER NORQUIST'S STRANGE ALLIANCE WITH RADICAL ISLAM.

723 posted on 12/17/2003 11:57:40 AM PST by JohnGalt (How few were left who had seen the Republic!---Tacitus)
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To: Nick Danger
Frank Gaffney stands outside the meeting room on Wednesdays and hands out his materials. I've read them. People take that stuff and walk right into the meeting with Grover Norquist. David Keene; David Frum; Chuck Muth; people from the White House; the Senate; the House; the Pentagon; the Cato Institute; the Heritage Foundation; the NRA; people running for office from all over the country. They walk right past Frank Gaffney and into Grover's meeting. That is what I see.

< -snip- >

I have no idea what to think about a pissing contest between Frank Gaffney and Grover Norquist. I look around and it doesn't look to me like "old Washington hands" are paying much attention to Frank.

Some of the old hands you just cited:

Here now is where the story gets painful for us Bush Republicans. Not only were the al-Arians not avoided by the Bush White House - they were actively courted. Candidate Bush allowed himself to be photographed with the al-Arian family while campaigning in Florida. Candidate Bush denounced the immigration laws that detained - and ultimately deported - Mazen al-Najjar. In May 2001, Sami al-Arian was invited into the White House complex for a political briefing for Muslim-American leaders. The next month his son, Abdullah, who was then an intern in the office of Congressman David Bonior, joined a delegation of Muslim leaders at a meeting with John DiIulio, head of the Office of Faith-Based Initiatives. After the group entered the complex, a red flag belatedly popped up over the al-Arian name, and the Secret Service ordered him out of the complex. The entire delegation marched out with young al-Arian - and soon afterward, President Bush personally apologized to the young man and ordered the deputy director of the Secret Service to apologize as well.

(Young al-Arian published a strikingly disingenuous account of this experience in the online edition of Newsweek on - note the date - September 14, 2001. Newsweek - a magazine normally celebrated for its rigorous fact-checking - permitted young al-Arian to claim on its site that he had been "singled out" only because of his "name and physical features." Now in one sense that's true - had Abdullah al-Arian been named Abdullah al-Shmarian, nobody at the Secret Service would have troubled him. But al-Arian and Newsweek cooperated in leaving the reader with a very false impression that he had been the victim of some kind of bigoted anti-Muslim dragnet.)

The al-Arian case was not a solitary lapse. The Bush campaign in 2000 very determinedly reached out to Muslim voters. Indeed, Muslim-Americans may have tipped the election to George Bush. One survey suggests that the 50,000 Muslim voters of Florida, normally staunch Democrats, reacted to Al Gore's selection of Joe Lieberman as his running mate by voting 80% for Bush. That outreach campaign opened relationships between the Bush campaign and some very disturbing persons in the Muslim-American community. Many of those disturbing persons were invited to stand beside the president at post-9/11 events, like his meeting with Muslim community leaders at the Massachusetts Avenue mosque.

Over the past year, the White House has become much more selective about its invitations. More selective - but still far from selective enough.

There is one way that we Republicans are very lucky - we face political opponents too crippled by political correctness to make an issue of these kinds of security lapses. At least - so far. But who knows? The day may come when some Democrat decides he cares more about winning elections than he does about liberal pieties. Against the day, is it too much to ask a wartime White House - please, please choose your friends more prudently!

Correction

Memory failed me on point above: Sami al-Arian's visit to the White House occurred in June 2001, not May; his son's visit was later in the same month.
David Frum's Diary - National Review Online
FEB. 21, 2003: THE STRANGE CASE OF SAMI AL-ARIAN


President Bush has come under some criticism recently for his outreach to the U.S. Muslim community because administration officials have apparently met with some groups that have ties -- direct or indirect -- with extremist groups here and in the Middle East.

Still, and in spite of the criticism he continues to reach out.

The president's position is understandable and even commendable. He doesn't want to do anything to make it appear that he's leading an anti-Muslim crusade because this would drive millions of Muslims into the extremist camp with Osama bin Laden and his buddies.

The problem is that the ideology driving the terrorists is in fact religion-based. Wahhabism is more than just the state-sponsored religion of Saudi Arabia. It is a branch of Islam that is warlike, anti-Western and bent upon our destruction. These folks hate us as well as any Muslim that doesn't dance to their tune. They have been responsible, in fact, for the slaughter of literally millions of their fellow Muslims in their drive to remake one of the world's major religions in their own image.

If the Wahhabis restricted their activities to the Middle East, it would be bad enough, but they're also active here. Thanks to their Saudi sponsors, they have leveraged resources to recruit followers on our college campuses, to create a virtual base in our prisons, and establish cells wherever Muslims gather. They control well over half the mosques in this country and virtually every organization that purports to speak for Muslim interests.

Make no mistake about it ... these people are our enemies. To deny this would be foolish and to empower them in any way is a mistake of the first order because doing so legitimizes their claim to speak for all Muslims.

The problem is that moderate Muslims control few organizations and have virtually no voice. Most of them, in fact, know better than to challenge the Wahhabis.

Non-Muslim experts know too that challenging the Wahhabis' extremist view of the world can be dangerous. Anyone who even remotely threatens the Wahhabis can expect to be denounced by supposedly mainline Muslim organizations and their friends as anti-Muslim and a religious bigot to boot.

These groups are, in the main, acting as de facto defenders of the sponsors of extremist terrorism. Those who would defend this country are not lumping all Muslims together. It is the Wahhabis and their fellow travelers that see the Muslim population as a homogeneous sea in which they swim, hide and operate.

I have run into these zealots twice in the last six months or so. On both occasions their targets were recognized experts on Islam and terrorism who they denounced as "racists," "bigots" and men "who know absolutely nothing about Islam or the Middle East."

In both instances they sought veto power over who should or should not be allowed to discuss the extremist Muslim connection to world terrorism and in both instances they were rebuffed. Having failed to keep the objects of their enmity from speaking, they then proceeded to denounce publicly in the press and on the Internet the sponsors of the events at which they spoke as, you guessed it, "bigots and racists."

So who were these ignoramuses whom the Islamists see as mere bigots running around the country slandering an entire religion?

You've probably heard of both of them. One is Terry Emerson, a prize-winning journalist, who produced a major television report on the influence of Muslim extremists in this country. His "Jihad in America" aired on PBS, that hothouse of religious extremism and bigotry, and won him recognition as a leading journalistic expert on terrorism. He writes and lectures extensively on the subject and is called upon for analysis by the networks and the government, among others.

The other is Dan Pipes. Formerly of the Chicago and Harvard faculties, Pipes is currently director of the Middle East Forum. He has published at least 10 books including Militant Islam Reaches America, which has been widely praised for its analysis of just this problem.

I think I know why the Wahhabis hate these guys and will do anything they can to silence them. It's not because Emerson and Pipes are kooks, bigots or racists. And it's certainly not because they don't know what they're talking about.

Rather, it's because they know exactly what they're talking about. Neither man has ever said that all Muslims are the same and neither has ever tried to blame either mainstream Islam or its millions of followers for the war in which we are engaged.

The only people who have argued that no distinctions can or should be drawn among Muslims are the Wahhabis and their apologists and that should tell us all we need to know about both.
Muslim extremists seeking to foster one Islamic world
David A. Keene | February 19th, 2003


About 150 people will appreciate the exquisiteness of Z. Hallow's story about a rift between Grover Norquist and … lobbyists David Keene and Frank Gaffney. See if you can guess which side Mr. Hallow supports. LINK

"Veteran conservative activist Grover Norquist, credited with helping swing Muslim voters to support President Bush in the 2000 elections, has been accused of suppressing criticism of radical Islamic influence at the White House."

"Influential national defense specialist Frank Gaffney and American Conservative Union President David A. Keene yesterday separately accused Mr. Norquist of employing 'Stalinist tactics' against those who disagree with Mr. Norquist's role in brokering access to the Bush White House."

"Mr. Norquist had accused Mr. Gaffney and some of his allies in the conservative movement of 'racism' and religious bigotry."

"Mr. Norquist yesterday barred Mr. Gaffney from attending the regular Wednesday morning meetings of conservative Capitol Hill aides and interest-group representatives held in Mr. Norquist's L Street offices. The White House regularly sends a representative to the meetings, at which Mr. Rove has occasionally been the featured speaker."

"In disputes with organizers of two recent conservative conferences, Mr. Norquist warned his critics to back off because Mr. Bush and Mr. Rove were on his side. Norquist critics said that at various times he has told them that the president and Mr. Rove were angry with Mr. Gaffney and Middle East scholars Daniel Pipes and Steve Emory for, in Mr. Norquist's view, painting all American Muslims with the broad brush of radical Islamic terrorism."
ABC News link
WASHINGTON, February 7th, 2003

Here's an old hand you didn't mention...

Paul Weyrich, head of the Free Congress Foundation, a conservative Washington lobbying group, calls Mr. Norquist's dealings with Muslims "very dangerous." Mr. Weyrich adds, "We have to acknowledge we're at war and that it's very possible some of the Muslims want to establish a fifth column in this country."
Reaching Out: In Difficult Times, Muslims Count On Unlikely Advocate ---
Mr. Norquist, Famed Tax Foe, Offers Washington Access, Draws Conservative Flak --- Meeting an Alleged Terrorist

The Wall Street Journal - Tom Hamburger and Glenn R. Simpson | June 11, 2003
(Google HTML of a Gaffney .pdf link - scroll to page 2

FR link

752 posted on 12/17/2003 1:19:33 PM PST by Sabertooth
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