[Nick Danger]

the rest is your smoke.

No, I think you brought enough smoke for both of us. Let's have another toke of this stuff:

Last,in this same vein: the same is true of Grover's donor and his successor as Islamic Insitute chairman, Talaat Othman. Othman is an old Bush family friend, so much so that he is invested for 17 % of W's oil company, Harken Energy, on behalf of his Saudi boss gigilionaire Sheikh Baksh. Othman was appointed to the Texas State Utilities commission, even though he lives in Illinois. Othman also gave the invocation at the GOP 2000 convention (the first Muslim at either Party's convention, and possibly at Grover's suggestion)

Enough with the innuendo, and enough with the "Grover did it." Here you bring us an "old Bush family friend," that Grover Grover Grover who was appointed to the Texas State Utilities Commission -- another redoubt of Norquist's power, I'm sure -- and who was invested in, and on the board of, Harkin Energy... which was Grover Norquist's W's oil company, and who gave the invocation Grover Grover Grover at the GOP convention that nominated an old family friend of his, who today is the President of the United States.

OK, so here's Grover again, messing around with another one of them thar Muslims, taking money from him and making him chairman of the Islamic Institute. In the next paragraph, this here Muslim is gonna get mixed up with raids and terrorism charges and all kinds of bad stuff, ending on the note that "this Othman guy joins the Board of a fund run by a terrorist finance wiz, who also funded Sami Al Arian."

We interrupt this program to remind our audience that we are talking here about an old Bush family friend, a man who served on the board of directors of the President's oil company, and who is now being presented to us as another one of those shady Muslim types that Grover Norquist hangs out with.

Now I didn't make any of that stuff up. You wrote it. You dragged the guy in here, you taped him to Grover Norquist, and you set the two of them next to the terrorist bombers. Only somewhere along the way you accidentally mentioned that this guy goes way back with the Bushes and probably knew Dubya before either one of them ever heard of Grover Norquist.

So once again: what is the game here, Jack? Are you accusing the President of the United States of something, or are you not? You just dragged us through the same sort of associations (old family friend, on the board, invested money in) and the same sort of links to terrorists (Mirza, Ptech, MENA, terrorist finance wiz) that you've been pounding Grover Norquist with, only this time it's all about the President.

Based on information that you brought in here, rolled up and lit or otherwise, we can fairly describe this guy as being on the board of both the President's company, and "a fund run by a terrorist finance wiz, who also funded Sami Al Arian."

That's heavy stuff. Remind me again why you're going after Grover Norquist. It seems to me that you nailed the President in exactly the same way you nailed Grover Norquist. If a guy who was once appointed to the Texas Utilities Commission is suddenly appointed the chairman of Grover's Institute, it's a reasonable question to ask which way the Muslims are flowing. So what's the deal here? Are you afraid that if you go around making these kinds of charges against Bush, that people will dismiss you as a nut? So you make them against Norquist because most people don't know who Norquist is? What good will that do? The Republic is in peril. If the President has guys who associate with Muslim terrorists in his inner circle, and he is telling people like Grover Norquist to appoint them to high positions in his Institute, then the Grover Norquist problem can be moved to the back burner for a bit. You seem to have this fixation on taking out Grover Norquist when your own data points to A Much Larger Problem.

I would like to ask this question again: Are you sure there isn't something going on here that's above your pay grade?

[Trollstomper]

see brackets [[ ]] for my responses:


Posted by Nick Danger to Trollstomper
On News/Activism 12/16/2003 7:46:01 PM PST #672 of 672

the rest is your smoke.
No, I think you brought enough smoke for both of us. Let's have another toke of this stuff:


Last,in this same vein: the same is true of Grover's donor and his successor as Islamic Insitute chairman, Talaat Othman. Othman is an old Bush family friend, so much so that he is invested for 17 % of W's oil company, Harken Energy, on behalf of his Saudi boss gigilionaire Sheikh Baksh. Othman was appointed to the Texas State Utilities commission [[by Gov Bush, yes]], even though he lives in Illinois. Othman also gave the invocation at the GOP 2000 convention (the first Muslim at either Party's convention, and possibly at Grover's suggestion)

Enough with the innuendo,[[just facts, already public in nice triple fact-check and lawyered places like the Wall Street Journal, see Sabertooth's earlier post for more of same.]] and enough with the "Grover did it." [[ He did; and yes it's "enough"]] Here you bring us an "old Bush family friend," that [[ what is this? Grover Grover Grover ]]who was appointed to the Texas State Utilities Commission -- [[and this?? another redoubt of Norquist's power, I'm sure ]]-- and who was invested in, and on the board of, Harkin Energy...[[in your zeal for ellipses you left out the Saudi partner of Bin Mahfouz whose money it is, why??]] which was [[ I will say Grover when it's Grover, don't worry; you appear to be the one with the phobias: Grover Norquist's]] W's oil company, and who gave the invocation [[ditto: Grover Grover Grover ?? ]]at the GOP convention
that nominated an old family friend of his, who today is the President of the United States.

OK, so here's Grover again, messing around with another one of them thar Muslims, taking money from him and making him chairman of the Islamic Institute. [[I don't know who made him chairman and I therefor did not say, so why do you?]]

In the next paragraph, this here Muslim is gonna get mixed up with raids and terrorism charges and all kinds of bad stuff, ending on the note that "this Othman guy joins the Board of a fund run by a terrorist finance wiz, who also funded Sami Al Arian." [[ again, your elliptical zeal cause you to leave out the little item about also funding Grover.]]

We interrupt this program to remind our audience that we are talking here about an old Bush family friend, a man who served on the board of directors of the President's oil company, and who is now being presented to us as another one of those shady Muslim types that Grover Norquist hangs out with. [[Point is that Othman, like George Salem who you curiously leave out are indeed friends and are linked however you'd like to view it to terror groups,and nobody on staff wants to get on that trail becasue they know where it will wind up, both re Saudi policy, Bush and having to explain why someone very big made a serious string of mistakes and compounded them by not acting when told again and again. That is one of Washinton's fatal flaws, the "coverup" mentality; a precursor of which is the "shoot the messenger" tic. Ya' know?]]

(why did you leave out Salem from you rewite of my posting? Is it b/c he really was the lawyer for a terrorist fund, and he really did deliver $250k for the campaign,and he really is an old Bush 1 person and he really was head of Arab-Americans for Bush, and he really did give a little money to Grover and all that is a little harder for you to dismiss than b/c you don't know as much about Mirza? Same question re James A. Baker 111, lawyer for Sauds against 9/11 Victims Families case and then appointed last week for Iraq.) ]]

Now I didn't make any of that stuff up. You wrote it. [[No,actually you made it all up]] You dragged the guy in here, you taped him to Grover Norquist, [[Actually, they "taped" themselves together and they "sat" themselves, quite literally, now that you mention it, next to "the terrorist bombers']] and you set the two of them next to the terrorist bombers. Only somewhere along the way you accidentally mentioned that this guy goes way back with the Bushes and probably knew Dubya before either one of them ever heard of Grover Norquist. [[ Not accidental, but in reply to the earlier query as to why people who are senior White House staff have conjectured that nobody is willing to take this up with Rove. I gave two real and rather obvious examples that I was given by them and researched to verify details, and are quite known actually. People almost always protect in this way, Doesn't mean it isn't bad, can't be observed, can't be used as a cutionary tale before there are more, etc. Most smart people try to avoid even the appearance of such connections when they are in such abundance. IN Salem's case: go announce his client as a terrorist org. that is so bad that you need to announce its closing personally, but take money from it's lawyer, and get him on an advisory board for Arab/Muslim civil rights at the Justice Dept, and people begin to wonder. Reasonable people.]]

So once again: what is the game here, Jack? Are you accusing the President of the United States of something, or are you not? [[ Did I?, No. ]] You just dragged us through the same sort of associations (old family friend, on the board, invested money in) and the same sort of links to terrorists (Mirza, Ptech, MENA, terrorist finance wiz) that you've been pounding Grover Norquist with, only this time it's all about the President. [[No, again, it's about Rove and Grover and Muslims and Arabs with previously known and subsequently increasingly proven and prosecuted terrorist connections, and how these things combine, under the President's name and roof, to endanger him and the rest of us. At least 6, that I know of, up to this point, of the Muslim people/groups thus brought into the President, as an admitted result of Grover's scheme, have been arrested, charged and are on their way clearly to convictions for terrorism. How many would you like it to be before you figure this out? In the coming months, and in the course of these vry trials, many more associated with this "outreach effort" and with funding Norquist institute will be similarly arrested, charged and doubtless convicted of terrorism. You can learn about it now or learn about it later, I don't care in your case. I do care about the President's case and the campaign's and the country's. This will be a jucier story as the numbers mount of course. It may already set the record for WH known association with terrorists, but soon it will exceed the Clinton's record for known association with Chinese crooks and spies. And we all remember how that turned out. ]]

Based on information that you brought in here, rolled up and lit or otherwise, we can fairly describe this guy as being on the board of both the President's company [[ well, actually owning a large share of it and being on the audit committee and being a family friend ,etc. --who by the way out of deference to that relationship should have the temerity to turn down offers from terror funders ]] and "a fund run by a terrorist finance wiz, who also funded Sami Al Arian." [[ and illegally did business with a deignated terrorist in the Boston investment, not to mention his other raided funds and companies --- all of which are a related , RICO-style enterprise, designed exclusively to raise , layer, park and transfer terror money and terrorists. This is not an open public fund, none of the investments are innocent of terror nexis, by design and definition. Just as no one walks in from the street to any of the GreenQuest raided SAAR/SAFA entities and ask for or receives a "grant" -- only related entities (again, RICO prosecution) like Sami, and the off-shore terror charities. So how come Grover/Saffuri get seed money from these entities in the multiple tens of thousands, starting in 1999? ]]

That's heavy stuff. Remind me again why you're going after Grover Norquist. It seems to me that you nailed the President [[No]] in exactly the same way you nailed Grover Norquist. [[Norquist nailed himself, as most people see. ]] If a guy who was once appointed to the Texas Utilities Commission is suddenly appointed the chairman of Grover's Institute, it's a reasonable question to ask which way the Muslims are flowing. So what's the deal here? Are you afraid that if you go around making these kinds of charges against Bush, that people will dismiss you as a nut? [[No, I'm afraid if you keep ignoring and twisting all facts and responses to come up with this silliness people will dismiss you as the Grover equivalent of the head of the Michael Jackson Fan Club ]] So you make them against Norquist because most people don't know who Norquist is? [[a. Everyone in DC and the media, and increasingly the FBI/DOJ, know who Norquist is; b.) Grover is responsible and must and will be held to be so. If you don't think so then you should be in the other movement, or its Party, because abdication of personal responsibility, the embrace of moral relativeness, the defense of "judge me by what I meant, not what I did" and the agitprop of smearing all opponents as "racists and bigots" are their spleen and spore. You could do yeoman press work for them.

What good will that do? The Republic is in peril. If the President has guys who associate with Muslim terrorists in his inner circle [[Yes, not to mention a in few photos in the Oval Office and other places]], and he is telling people like Grover Norquist to appoint them to high positions in his Institute,[[Again nothing of the kind was said or implied, only inferred by your fevered self]] then the Grover Norquist problem can be moved to the back burner for a bit. You seem to have this fixation on taking out [[STOPPING]] Grover Norquist when your own data points to A Much Larger Problem. [[I have said along this thread that there is a much bigger problem which is the Saudi and Islamist effort and money and the American default setting toward SA. ]]

I would like to ask this question again: Are you sure there isn't something going on here that's above your pay grade?

[[ What do you think my "pay grade" is. And mightn't you be surprised? I think it's more a matter of gray matter than green in this case anyway. ]]

[[By the way, no response on the Secret Service and AlArian/Rove/Grover/ mau-mau incident answer? Cat got your tongue or did your mouse lead you to the slew of stories that say what I said? ]]