They came, they saw the conquerors (750,000 in Trafalgar Square)

The Times ^ | December 9, 2003 | Simon Barnes

[Prodigal Son]

So do I.

You don't like it when he calls the French "Frogs"? I would think this would be the sort of thing the average freeper would like.

[hellinahandcart]

We're going to have to permanently disagree then. I think his comments were in a much larger context, only periphally involving the sporting world.

[Prodigal Son]

LOL, he's a sports writer. Writing about sports is exactly what he does and the ugly side of football patriotism is something every sports writer in the UK has to deal with on a regular basis. I think back to 1999 when the Scottish crowd jeered during the national anthem when England played the Scots in Glasgow. It's quite a serious issue here. This crowd in Trafalgar Square showed us that patriotism doesn't have to be ugly and I'm glad.

Peruse some of his other columns. No hidden political agendas there.

[hellinahandcart]

You don't like it when he calls the French "Frogs"? I would think this would be the sort of thing the average freeper would like.

I didn't see the word "frog" in this article, PS, but there still wouldn't be a lot to like, after the poisoned paragraph.

[Prodigal Son]

He calls the French Frogs in other columns. Obviously, it's not in this article because it's not about France.

I thought it was rather a nice paragraph.

[Winniesboy]

I don't want to but in on a private conversation: but can I say that from the point of view of an Englishman, Prodigal Son's comments on the relative perception of overt, public expressions of patriotism in the UK as contrasted with the US are very astute. It seems to me that misunderstandings of the historical background to this difference do quite often lead to misunderstandings by US freepers of the real attitute of my countrymen to their country. The fact that we mistrust loud public expressions of patriotism doesn't mean we're not patriotic: quite the contrary, in fact.

[hellinahandcart]

There's no such thing as a "private conversation" on the forum. ;D

[Prodigal Son]

There's no such thing as a "private conversation" on the forum. ;D

True ;-)

[hellinahandcart]

I am the belle of the ball today. Why, just ask anyone.

(batting eyes)

[bernie_g]

For what it's worth, I agree with the other posters about the way flag-waving is perceived in the UK, and why. The only people who normally go in for waving the Union Jack in a big way are vicious neo-Nazi soccer thugs and two closely associated political parties the BNP and National Front.

The way British people tend to look at it is that they know they're British, don't need to wave a flag to prove it and tend to think that anyone who does, except on some particular occasions like royal processions, major international sports victories and so on, is either some sort of nutter or maybe even a sinister ultra-nationalist psychopath of some kind, like the neo-Nazi who was planting nail-bombs in gay pubs and asian markets a few years ago and whose rooms were decorated with Union Jacks and Nazi memorabilia.

I'm sure this plays at least some part in the negative perceptions of US style patriotism among my countrymen, athough most seem to understand that it's just another of the odd ways in which Americans differ from British people.

[hellinahandcart]

You guys are not the first to explain this to me, you know.

And just for the record, I am not a huge flag-displayer myself. I have a small flag on my front door, and a few pins that I wear at appropriate times, and that's it. But I can't imagine being put off or offended by larger displays or patriotic celebrations.

I said earlier to PS that we'll just have to permanently disagree about this, because no matter how many ways you present it, it is ALWAYS going to seem strange to me.

Strange that you can look at drunken soccer fans and conclude that it's not the violence, but the flag-waving, that is to be associated with their behavior.

That it wasn't Hitler's ideology and aggression, but his nationalism, that was the problem.

That celebrating one's country publicly is intrinsically bad, so much so that this author expresses wonder that this one event was benign.

This is always going to seem odd to me, and it is also always going to remind me of the leftist school of thought that assures us we'd all be better off if we dispensed with the idea of nationhood altogether. Sorry.

I can accept that you feel that way, but I can never understand feeling that way. Particularly when you have so much of which to be proud.

[hellinahandcart]

And anyone who would combine Nazi memorabilia and the Union Jack in their home decor is a nut-deluxe. But again, I don't understand how it's the flag that's the problem, the tip-off to psychosis, rather than the nail bombs and Nazi stuff.

He was abusing your flag. I don't understand finding the flag itself distasteful, rather than the abuser. I simply don't. Never will.

[bernie_g]

I think it's a different idea of what's an appropriate time to wave flags. Most British people are used to seeing this on certain very special national occasions only. The rest of the time, the only people who go in for it are violent neo-nazis. So there is an unfair and perhaps unconcious presumption that people who wave flags a lot are neo-nazis.

[AnAmericanMother]

or, as Kipling put it, "jelly-bellied flag flappers."

In context: "The Flag of Their Country" (Stalky & Co.)

It predates WWII, or WWI even. The Brits are just more restrained, it has to be a major event before they'll let go with an orgy of patriotism.

[hellinahandcart]

So there is an unfair and perhaps unconcious presumption that people who wave flags a lot are neo-nazis.

Yeah, tell me about it. I get a little sick of hearing that America is "looking like Nazi Germany". But I've noticed that many liberals have a lot of trouble making distinctions between one thing and an entirely different thing. It's all the same to them.

There were a few lefties here, screeching that country singer Toby Keith had threatened them all with death on Thanksgiving Day. What did he do? He sang "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue" during the halftime show of a football game. With a flag behind him somewhere.

They took those lyrics personally. And they find the flag extremely threatening. Three guesses why.

Transnationalism is going to be a lot more dangerous in the end than nationalism, in my opinion.