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To: Luis Gonzalez; breakem; Torie; jwalsh07; mcg1969; panther33
The evolution of gay rights and marriage laws now merge into the definition of marriage written by the Massachusetts court: "We construe civil marriage to mean the voluntary union of two persons as spouses, to the exclusion of all others." -Ellen Goodman.

Ellen, it is not the job of four people with robes to write the definition of marriage. What the heck qualifies these judges for that task? The definition was already unambiguously written into the law, to interpret which is their primary task.

EG's column uses the same sophistry as Marshall's majority opinion. She accepts and promotes the Marxist claptrap that it is the redistribution of wealth that gives individuals their choices. Since any moral disapproval by We the People is repudiated as mere prejudice, law must now be drained of our judgments, so that coercion of virtue becomes the province of judges.

Her column claims to trace two paths, gay rights, and the definition of marriage. She tries to paint them as converging. But she gives short shrift to gay rights, citing only the sodomy law decision. If the only problem for gays were those silly laws that were virtually never enforced, it sure doesn't look much like the struggle that African-Americans had to endure to get civil rights.

No, but the implication is that the inability to get marriage benefits is equated with Jim Crow.

But she uses the most intellectual dishonesty on the other path: describing an illusory "evolution" of civil marriage. In fact, civil marriage has not changed in definition, purpose, or in its main legal structures. She listed only decriminalizations of certain behaviors and changes in divorce law, as if these refinements were redefining what marriage is all about.

To peddle the lie that marriage is rightfully about the satisfaction of adults and not the begetting and raising of children in stable families embraces the rot which is slowly destroying Western Europe. I refer to the triumph of secular humanism and the concomitant marginalization of the Judeo-Christian tradition. Pure poison.

367 posted on 12/13/2003 2:42:27 PM PST by NutCrackerBoy
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To: NutCrackerBoy
Well, the problems of Europe are about low birth rates primarily (actually putting that aside, Western Europe is by and large one of the most agreeable places to live on this planet), and the lowest birth rates are not in places where "secular humanism" (and certainly not gay marriages) has raised its ugly head in your parlance. The lowest birth rates are in Slavic countries by and large. Your cause and effect analysis really lacks much empirical traction. The suggestion that gay marriage will end civilization as we know it is just that - a suggestion.
368 posted on 12/13/2003 2:58:32 PM PST by Torie
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To: NutCrackerBoy
The Copurt's finding does not change in any way the definition of marriage, it expands it.

You seem to be stuck in place by your inability to separate the definition of marriage from the governmental restrictions on licensing.

Marriage means the same in Massachuttes today, than it did before the Court's ruling; the State was found to be in violation of their own Constitution when they refuse to issue some couples marriage licenses based on a State-sponsored dissapproval of their choice of partner via the gender make up of the couple in question, thus creating a second-class citizen.

"To peddle the lie that marriage is rightfully about the satisfaction of adults and not the begetting and raising of children in stable families embraces the rot which is slowly destroying Western Europe."

No one required me to sign a contract forcing my wife and I to have children prior to being issued a marriage license, and stability is exactly what the likely end-result of same-sex couples marrying will bring about.

"But she uses the most intellectual dishonesty on the other path: describing an illusory "evolution" of civil marriage. In fact, civil marriage has not changed in definition, purpose, or in its main legal structures."

You want claptrap?

There's pure, unadulterated claptrap.

We have seen marriage go from a time when a woman was not allowed to charge a husband with rape because marriage took away her rights as an individual to say "no", where couples could not buy birth control, where blacks and whites could not marry, and right into no-fault divorce.

If those things did not change the definition of marriage, neither did this.

369 posted on 12/13/2003 3:00:03 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Gift Is To See The Trout.)
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