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To: js1138; betty boop
Stephen hawkings would argue that the known evidence for the big bang does not require a creation event. He has writtent the books on this subject. I'll let him do the math.

Here's one that Lurkers might find interesting (emphasis mine):

Imaginary Time - Stephen Hawking

In this lecture, I would like to discuss whether time itself has a beginning, and whether it will have an end. All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology. Yet it is now taken for granted. We are not yet certain whether the universe will have an end...

The time scale of the universe is very long compared to that for human life. It was therefore not surprising that until recently, the universe was thought to be essentially static, and unchanging in time...

Since events before the Big Bang have no observational consequences, one may as well cut them out of the theory, and say that time began at the Big Bang. Events before the Big Bang, are simply not defined, because there's no way one could measure what happened at them. This kind of beginning to the universe, and of time itself, is very different to the beginnings that had been considered earlier. These had to be imposed on the universe by some external agency. There is no dynamical reason why the motion of bodies in the solar system can not be extrapolated back in time, far beyond four thousand and four BC, the date for the creation of the universe, according to the book of Genesis. Thus it would require the direct intervention of God, if the universe began at that date. By contrast, the Big Bang is a beginning that is required by the dynamical laws that govern the universe. It is therefore intrinsic to the universe, and is not imposed on it from outside.

Although the laws of science seemed to predict the universe had a beginning, they also seemed to predict that they could not determine how the universe would have begun. This was obviously very unsatisfactory. So there were a number of attempts to get round the conclusion, that there was a singularity of infinite density in the past. ....

If space and imaginary time are indeed like the surface of the Earth, there wouldn't be any singularities in the imaginary time direction, at which the laws of physics would break down. And there wouldn't be any boundaries, to the imaginary time space-time, just as there aren't any boundaries to the surface of the Earth. This absence of boundaries means that the laws of physics would determine the state of the universe uniquely, in imaginary time. But if one knows the state of the universe in imaginary time, one can calculate the state of the universe in real time. One would still expect some sort of Big Bang singularity in real time. So real time would still have a beginning. But one wouldn't have to appeal to something outside the universe, to determine how the universe began. Instead, the way the universe started out at the Big Bang would be determined by the state of the universe in imaginary time. Thus, the universe would be a completely self-contained system. It would not be determined by anything outside the physical universe, that we observe.


241 posted on 12/16/2003 9:14:32 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; js1138; Phaedrus; marron; PatrickHenry; Right Wing Professor; jennyp; XBob; cornelis; ..
By contrast, the Big Bang is a beginning that is required by the dynamical laws that govern the universe. It is therefore intrinsic to the universe, and is not imposed on it from outside.

Well good grief, Alamo-Girl -- somebody please tell me about the derivation of these "dynamical laws that govern the universe," that are "not imposed on it from the outside."

Don't we need to first ask how does a law get to be a LAW in the first place?

How can it be said that something that is posited as spontaneously sui generis within the framework of space and time gets the "credentials" to govern space and time? Is the Universe a "democracy?"

If it is -- a democracy constituted by what?

The resort to "imaginary time" seems tantamount to making the case for the "imaginary thinker."

Why does the denial or evasion of the Divine aspect of life in the Universe seem ever to require such circuitous routes?

242 posted on 12/16/2003 10:54:13 PM PST by betty boop (God used beautiful mathematics in creating the world. -- Paul Dirac)
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