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Carry On - Concealed weapon laws
Reason ^
Posted on 12/04/2003 8:03:54 AM PST by Stew Padasso
December 2003
Carry On
Concealed weapon laws
Jacob Sullum
The number of states that allow law-abiding citizens to carry concealed firearms hit 36 in September, up from 10 in 1986. The three-dozen mark was reached after Missouris legislature voted to override Gov. Bob Holdens veto of a right-to-carry bill.
Missouris old law gave county sheriffs the discretion to deny a permit to any applicant they believed was "a danger to himself or others." Under the new law, which took effect in October, residents who are at least 23 years old and who take an eight-hour gun safety course can obtain a concealed carry permit provided they do not have disqualifying characteristics such as a dishonorable discharge, a felony record, or a recent conviction for a violent misdemeanor.
Thirty-one other states have such "shall issue" laws, which require that a permit be given to anyone who meets a set of uniform, specific criteria. Two states, Alabama and Connecticut, have discretionary permit policies that the National Rifle Association deems "fair," and two others, Vermont and Alaska, do not require permits at all. Alaska, which used to have a "shall issue" law, changed to the more permissive approach in June.
Other recent signs that a right to carry guns for self-defense is gaining widespread recognition:
In July the Wisconsin Supreme Court ruled that the states 130-year-old ban on concealed carry violates a 1998 amendment to the state constitution guaranteeing "the right to keep and bear arms for security, defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose." (By contrast, the Ohio Supreme Court upheld that states 144-year-old ban in a September 24 ruling that overturned a 2002 state appeals court decision.)
In May a Colorado "shall issue" law took effect, requiring that a concealed carry permit be granted to "any competent person over 21" who is properly trained and passes a criminal background check.
In April, Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty signed a similar "shall issue" law.
Gun control critics such as John Lott, a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, argue that right-to-carry laws have had a measurable impact on crime by making predators think twice about targeting victims who may be armed. (See "Cold Comfort," January 2000.) While those findings remain controversial, the proliferation of "shall issue" laws has forced anti-gun activists to concede that they were wrong to predict that letting people carry guns would lead to Wild West-style violence.
"My conclusion, looking at crime rates and concealed carry permits, is that it doesnt have any effect on crime," Jim Kessler of Americans for Gun Safety told The Washington Times in August. "It doesnt add to crime either. Its basically a wash."
TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; ccw; jacobsullum; reason
To: *bang_list
Bang
2
posted on
12/04/2003 8:10:30 AM PST
by
Atlas Sneezed
(Police officials view armed citizens like teachers union bosses view homeschoolers.)
To: Stew Padasso
"My conclusion, looking at crime rates and concealed carry permits, is that it doesnt have any effect on crime," Jim Kessler of Americans for Gun Safety told The Washington Times If it's my concealed permit that saves my ass on the line, you bet it has an effect, clown.
3
posted on
12/04/2003 8:10:58 AM PST
by
glock rocks
(molon labe)
To: Stew Padasso
..."My conclusion, looking at crime rates and concealed carry permits, is that it doesnt have any effect on crime," Jim Kessler of Americans for Gun Safety told The Washington Times in August. "It doesnt add to crime either. Its basically a wash."...
From Mr. Kessler comes a lot of hogwash.
4
posted on
12/04/2003 8:36:33 AM PST
by
GunsareOK
To: Stew Padasso
There is a transfer effect. People who understand reality are more likely to be armed and less likely to be attacked. Those who ignore reality are more likely to be unarmed and more likely to be attacked.
Criminals commit more crimes against property, and less against people, because they do not wish to be shot.
Overall, a considerable plus up for society at large.
5
posted on
12/04/2003 8:38:54 AM PST
by
marktwain
To: glock rocks
This doesn't apply in Cali. Here, you have to look for a tree to hide behind if you are attacked by a maniac with a pistol.
(But don't worry, the TV cameramen will get it all on tape.)
6
posted on
12/04/2003 10:22:42 AM PST
by
Travis McGee
(----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
To: Stew Padasso
Regardless of the laws of a state, the common sense law of Self Defense also apply, and the image that you will be disarmed once the police arrive on the scene and determine who did what. So the following will be, needs to be a part of the encounter, and why and how you made your decision to used deadly force.
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5 Rules of Conceal and Carry
"YOUR CONCEALED WEAPON IS FOR PROTECTION OF INNOCENT LIFE ONLY."
"KNOW EXACTLY WHEN YOU CAN USE YOUR WEAPON."
"IF YOU CAN RUN AWAY SAFELY- RUN, RUN RUN!"
"DISPLAY YOUR WEAPON, GO TO JAIL."
"DON'T LET YOUR EMOTIONS GET THE BEST OF YOU."
Detail
5 Rules of Conceal and Carry (like a pistol)
1. YOUR CONCEALED WEAPON IS FOR PROTECTION OF INNOCENT LIFE ONLY.
Draw it solely in preparation to protect yourself or an innocent third party from the wrongful and criminal activities of another.
2. KNOW EXACTLY WHEN YOU CAN USE YOUR WEAPON.
The criminal adversary must have or reasonably appear to have:
A. The ABILITY to inflict serious bodily injury. He is armed or reasonably appears to be armed.
B. The OPPORTUNITY to inflict serious bodily harm. He is positioned to harm you with his weapon, and,
C. His INTENT (hostile actions or words) indicates that he means to place you in jeopardy - to do you serious or fatal physical harm.
When all three of these "attack potential" elements are in place simultaneously, then you are facing a reasonably perceived deadly threat that justifies an emergency deadly force response. Note that these conditions may be defined differently in certain circumstances. For example, a small woman may be justified in using deadly force with a handgun against a much stronger male who is unarmed and attempting to rape or kill her. For a male vs. male encounter the defendant probably would not be justified unless possibly if he was physically handicapped, elderly, etc. This is known as disparity of force.
3. IF YOU CAN RUN AWAY SAFELY- RUN, RUN, RUN!
Just because you are armed doesn't necessarily mean that you must confront a bad guy at gunpoint. Develop your situation awareness skills so that you can be alert to detect and avoid trouble as much as possible. Keep in mind that if you successfully evade a potential confrontation, the single negative consequence involved might only be your bruised ego, which should heal quickly with mature rationalization. But if you force a confrontation, and it escalates into deadly force, you risk the possibility of death or serious injury to yourself and any friends, family members, or innocent bystanders that may be present.
Also you face the possibility of criminal liability and/or financial ruin from a civil lawsuit as a result of your actions. Flee if you can - fight only as a last resort.
Naturally, there are circumstances in which you may be able to flee but it would not be in your best interest or judgment to do so. For example, a situation that you could easily flee from when alone may be difficult to safely avoid if your family was with you. Also it may be a judgment/ethics call on whether or not to fight or flee based on what is happening to potential victims around you.
For example, a gunman may be threatening the life of someone else and not even notice you. If you leave the scene, and go call 911 and just wait for the police to show up, you may have to deal with guilt and emotional issues that result if the gunman kills someone. In contrast, if you intervene, then you may risk your own life. Remember that self-preservation, and keeping your loved ones safe should be your first priorities. Always remember to stay calm and quickly analyze the situation at hand. Use good judgment on how you will react to any given circumstance.
4. DISPLAY YOUR WEAPON, GO TO JAIL.
You should expect to be arrested by police at gunpoint, and be charged with a crime anytime your concealed handgun is seen by another citizen in public, regardless of how unintentional, innocent, or justified the situation might seem.
Choose a method of carry that reliably keeps your gun hidden from public view at all times. You have no control over how a stranger will react to seeing (or learning about) your concealed weapon. He of she might become alarmed and report you as a "man or woman with a gun". Depending on his or her feelings about firearms, this person might maliciously embellish their story in an attempt to have your gun seized by police or in order to get you arrested. Even though your jacket only blew open for a moment, giving a brief glimpse of your gun, that person may tell the police that you were waving it around like a homicidal maniac. An alarmed citizen who reports a "man or woman with a gun" is going to be a lot more credible to police than you are when you are stopped because you match the "suspect's" description and you are found to have a concealed handgun in your possession. Before you deliberately expose your gun in public, ask yourself "is this worth going to jail for?" The only time this question should warrant a "yes" response is when an adversary has at least both the ABILITY and INTENT and is actively seeking the OPPORTUNITY to do you great harm.
Also, remember that proper concealment of a weapon is more than just covering it up so that it is not physically visible. You want to remove as much as possible any signs that you are armed. For example, you would not wear a tight T-shirt that shows the lines of your gun printing through it, especially if that T-shirt has a firearm related logo or statement on it. Also, a black nylon fanny-pack or a photographer's vest may, in certain areas or in certain modes of dress tell any half-educated person that you are packing a gun. It is also not usually a very good idea to let too many people know that you carry a gun. This fact should be limited to your immediate family and select friends who are "gun people" also. Please, for your sake and the sake of others around you - be discreet!
5. DON'T LET YOUR EMOTIONS GET THE BEST OF YOU.
When you are armed, you must realize that you just lost your right to initiate ANY type of confrontation that could possibly escalate into a violent encounter. You must now have a very mellow attitude on life and your fellow mankind.
You just lost the right to flip off the motorist who just cut you off in traffic. You have to ignore the scumbag who just "wolf-whistled" at your wife/girlfriend. If someone wants to pick a fight with you, you lost the right to respond in any way other than a kind, friendly manner while walking away. As an armed person you must be more likely and willing to avoid trouble that an unarmed person would be. You have the legal and moral obligation of de-escalating any situation that you are presented with unless you are faced by someone displaying all three of the "attack potential" elements. Carrying a loaded firearm among your fellow citizens is an awesome responsibility that is not to be taken lightly.
Remember, once you strap on your weapon, you must carry with it a great measure of discretion and judgment, along with an easy-going attitude.
7
posted on
12/04/2003 2:59:04 PM PST
by
CHICAGOFARMER
(Citizen Carry)
To: CHICAGOFARMER
4. DISPLAY YOUR WEAPON, GO TO JAIL. While this is the law in a few states, there are many where it is constitutionaly protected to carry weapons openly.
There are advantages to carrying openly, and advantages to carrying concealed.
We give a great deal of ground to the anti-freedom types when we concede that carrying openly is "wrong" or "evil" or "ill-advised". Why is it perfectly accepted for private security guards and police to carry openly, but not private citizens? Because we, as a society, have been propagandized to beleive so.
Obviously, carrying openly has three large advantages:
1. Social - You get to talk to people about guns and politics. I carry openly about 70% of the time, and have found about 80% of my contacts to be positive
2. Tactical - You gain tactical deterrence. Criminals are far less likely to attack armed people. Avoiding the crime is much better than drawing the gun after you have already been attacked.
3. Strategic - Criminals are less likely to attack others when they are reminded that there are armed citizens in society. You also have an innoculation effect, where seeing armed citizens innoculates other citizens with the evidence the armed citizens are not crazy or irresponsible, but normal members of society. I have seen this again and again. I have often heard people who moved to Arizona say that the first time they saw an armed citizen, they were shocked. By the third time, they had become used to the idea. We innoculate the police by the same method.
Being ashamed of carrying your firearm openly is giving up the moral high ground. We don't have to in most places, and we should not.
8
posted on
12/04/2003 3:25:13 PM PST
by
marktwain
To: marktwain
4. DISPLAY YOUR WEAPON, GO TO JAIL.
While this is the law in a few states, there are many where it is constitutionaly protected to carry weapons openly.
There are advantages to carrying openly, and advantages to carrying concealed.
We give a great deal of ground to the anti-freedom types when we concede that carrying openly is "wrong" or "evil" or "ill-advised". Why is it perfectly accepted for private security guards and police to carry openly, but not private citizens? Because we, as a society, have been propagandized to beleive so.
Obviously, carrying openly has three large advantages:
1. Social - You get to talk to people about guns and politics. I carry openly about 70% of the time, and have found about 80% of my contacts to be positive
2. Tactical - You gain tactical deterrence. Criminals are far less likely to attack armed people. Avoiding the crime is much better than drawing the gun after you have already been attacked.
3. Strategic - Criminals are less likely to attack others when they are reminded that there are armed citizens in society. You also have an innoculation effect, where seeing armed citizens innoculates other citizens with the evidence the armed citizens are not crazy or irresponsible, but normal members of society. I have seen this again and again. I have often heard people who moved to Arizona say that the first time they saw an armed citizen, they were shocked. By the third time, they had become used to the idea. We innoculate the police by the same method.
Being ashamed of carrying your firearm openly is giving up the moral high ground. We don't have to in most places, and we should not.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I agree with all your points in spades. Yes, society has been propagandized to believe that guns are bad.
I don't know what state you live in, I assume western. I for one would opt for open carry if at all possible.
The problem with eastern states is not the general public, the problem is a 911 call "man with a gun" mentality of the police and their felony tactics to disarm. Much better to be Concealed and without knowledge.
I have no problem carrying on converstations with the general public regarding firearms. Yes 90 % are positive, even women bring out their self defense tools.
The 5 rules are to help the hundreds of thousands of CCW owners who have not thought out the chain of events they will encounter if the 30,000 dollar bullet leaves their barrel. In most cases their firearm will be taken by the police for retreval at a later point in time. They will be grilled for information perhaps many times to fill out the police report.
Cops will be looking for the item two information, the Ability, the opportunity and the intent of the perp to do harm and your state of mind as a shooter. If the CCW shooter is not sure what to say, he sould request medical assistance for shock and trama, be taken to the hosipital, call his attorney from the hospital and then answer questions. In police shootings this is common tactic given the police officer involved in the shooting why not a citizen. Remember, if you are involved in a shooting you say the wrong thing it just get muckier for you.
All CCW carriers should know that shooting a perp in the back as they are running away in most states is a problem. Exceptions, and state law will determine the level of charge or no charge.
The rules I posted are to stay out of trouble, but yet take full advanage of the right to carry.
Again I do not have a problem with your additional points in fact acknowledge your pro active role in education of the general population.
9
posted on
12/04/2003 4:14:55 PM PST
by
CHICAGOFARMER
(Citizen Carry)
To: CHICAGOFARMER
We have legal open carry in Virginia. You should see the looks I get pumping gas, wearing my 1911 on my hip.
10
posted on
12/05/2003 8:04:04 AM PST
by
P8riot
(A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.)
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