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To: Alamo-Girl; tortoise
There is no requirement of substance in extra dimensions, either spatial or temporal. Substance is a macro sensory perception of physical laws at work and may indeed be only a manifestation of geometry in five dimensions.

Sorry, I think the term "substance" was a bit misleading.
What I meant is that in your model a human mind can only be implemented in spirit but not in matter. Now my problem is that I don't see why this must be the case i.e. that patterns (which a human mind obviously is) which exist in this "spirit" cannot be implemented in matter.
So in other words, what do "ordinary" atoms lack that they cannot be used to make a human mind (where the mind is a process in a brain which consists of "ordinary" atoms)?
Oh, and also keep in mind that the 19th century notion that "matter=determinism" is no longer valid as Doctor Stochastic (and others) has mentioned above.

That is exactly what I am saying except that there is no “stuff” to it.

OK, "stuff" may not be the correct term but still, if this spirit exists then it is something in which these dynamic patterns, which make up our mind, exist.
But this means that in your model a human mind is also a process, although not one in matter.

Matter without information (communication, mind, consciousness, etc.) is dead, inert, not alive.

What is matter without information? Maybe tortoise can shed some light on this because this doesn't make any sense to me.
Also, what we consider to be alive resp. not alive may be quite clear in the case of higher animals or plants at one end and rocks on the other but with viruses or complex organic self-replicating molecules the situation is much more ambiguous.
So at the moment I don't see why some kind of "vital force" (animism) in addition to chemical processes is needed to explain life.

887 posted on 12/10/2003 2:24:04 PM PST by BMCDA
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To: BMCDA; tortoise; betty boop; Phaedrus
Thank you so much for your reply! Jeepers, I have so much to say … where to begin, where to begin…

OK, "stuff" may not be the correct term but still, if this spirit exists then it is something in which these dynamic patterns, which make up our mind, exist. But this means that in your model a human mind is also a process, although not one in matter.

Ok, I’ll try to clear this misunderstanding up first because it might help the others to fall into place…

In my worldview, the mind (consciousness, spirit, soul) is non-temporal, non-spatial and non-corporeal. There is no requirement of physical laws that it be anywhere, at any time or contained within or be comprised of anything corporeal.

What I meant is that in your model a human mind can only be implemented in spirit but not in matter.

More specifically, in my Christian worldview, the relationship between the mind and the physical body is one of sensory utility. IOW, it is the mind that uses the body not as Pinker would have it, that “the mind is what the brain does.” Evidently, your worldview is much closer to Pinker's.

What I meant is that in your model a human mind can only be implemented in spirit but not in matter. Now my problem is that I don't see why this must be the case i.e. that patterns (which a human mind obviously is) which exist in this "spirit" cannot be implemented in matter.

To the contrary, I would say that the mind can be simulated in matter by artificial intelligence. It would nevertheless be a simulation and not the real thing.

Also, what we consider to be alive resp. not alive may be quite clear in the case of higher animals or plants at one end and rocks on the other but with viruses or complex organic self-replicating molecules the situation is much more ambiguous.

Not at all. Viruses and bacteria have information content. The genetic code is much like a database and the living organism – of whatever size – communicates successfully among its members and its environment. At bottom, it is this information (successful communication) that separates the living from the non-living.

That is why IMHO artificial intelligence may lead to a devise which cannot know that it is not alive.

889 posted on 12/10/2003 2:45:38 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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