Death of obese man (who assaulted police) ruled "homicide"

Fox News | 12/3/03 | Fox News

[zlala]

The Coroner just read a statement saying the direct cause of his death was the struggle with the police; or that them trying to subdue him and the struggle cause his death. Contributing factors included the drugs and his weight and heart condition.

[hgro]

One less problem in Cincinnati.

[At _War_With_Liberals]

If you think he was kicking ass, a real threat, and needed to be beaten severely after seeing that tape, then you know nothing about fighting.

[Senormechanico]

"Then how can the coroner attribute the guy's last one to the cops?

Their prescence ticked him off enough that he over-exerted himself and fought with them."

He wasn't only a druggie, fat, and stupid, but he was also a RACIST.
What a loser.

AM

[P-Marlowe]

The problem is that p-marlowe is one of those people who thinks that the police are a privileged class to whom the law should not apply as it does to the rest of us

What law did the police break? Were they not under a duty to detain him, especially after he threw a right hook into the face of one of the officers?

And was the perp not under a duty to obey the officers?

Under your scenario, if he had been running from the police, then it would have to be a homicide because, but for the fact that the police were pursuing him, he would not have died.

Nonsense. This is not different from a criminal who kills himself by crashing into a light pole in a car chase. It is not a homicide. It is an accidental suicide.

Using your logic, if a mugger mugs you and you refuse to give him the money and then he gets upset and has a heart attack, that his death would be a homicide because he would not have died if you'd only given him the money.

[ican'tbelieveit]

First, don't spin what really happened. He did pick himself up several times and was able to push back the police. Secondly, even this coroner, that has ruled it a homicide, has stated that the damage done from the nightsticks did not contribute to his death. So, they didn't beat him to death, they didn't beat the living shit out of him. That is spin.

[azhenfud]

"....then you know nothing about fighting."

I know all I need to know about fighting when a police officer says, "Put your hands behind your back" or "Stop resisting".

[OldFriend]

Sickened.....describes my reaction to your comments.

Perhaps you consider a singing of Kumbaya as a more appropriate response to a man so impaired by drugs that he would attack a police officer who was responding to give him aid.

[At _War_With_Liberals]

"they didn't beat the living shit out of him. That is spin."

Sure. They exercised "extreme restraint". Clubbing a man hundreds of times while on his knees with batons is harmless. He was beaten severely, period. Their reaction was extreme.


The 'absolute' position of law enforcement apologists and advocates of unrestrained police violence is sickening.

This is the first thread on FR since July that has really disturbed me. To give the police 100% sympathy and the dead man 0% is indicative of a sick underlying ideology.

[azhenfud]

"To give the police 100% sympathy and the dead man 0% is indicative of a sick underlying ideology."

What would YOU have done?

[At _War_With_Liberals]

""Put your hands behind your back" or "Stop resisting"."

Does not give them the justification to beat him severely. This whole sick event is a result of him not joining his hands behind his back. That is not reason enough to beat someone to unconsciousness.

In good conscience, I would never beat a man like who posed a minor threat. Period.

In the police culture, severe beatings are justified too easily. It's part of the culture.

[At _War_With_Liberals]

"Sickened.....describes my reaction to your comments."

But you have no problem with the severe beating.

See 168.

[spunkets]

"Their reaction was extreme."

The man earned every bit of it and more.

[OldFriend]

I have a problem with ANYONE attacking a police officer.

Evidently, in your world, that is an acceptable behaviour.

[geege]

I can't believe this....he was walking time bomb on drugs and the police caused it??????? sick sick sick....OK here come the riots..

[muggs]

And by the posters here who think it is great.

I don't think too many of of think it was great. I wince when I watch the video but police have the same right to protect themselves as anyone else. Probably if anyone else had an altercation with this guy and he died, it would be investigated and no charges filed.

[azhenfud]

Incident Began Unfolding Early Sunday

The events leading up to Jones' death began just before 6 a.m. Sunday when rescue crews responded to a report of a man passed out on the grass outside a White Castle restaurant on Mitchell Avenue in Avondale. Paramedics told a police dispatcher that the man was awake and "becoming a nuisance," and police officers were sent to the restaurant, according to police radio transmissions.

The first two officers to arrive, Baron Osterman and James Pike, were shown on videotape striking Jones after he ignored orders to stay back. The videotape showed the 350-pound Jones taking a swing at an officer and putting his arm around an officer's neck, according to WLWT.

The officers knocked Jones to the ground and fell on him. Jones was struck with nightsticks at least a dozen times as the officers yelled, "Put your hands behind your back!" and struggled to handcuff him.

Additional police were dispatched. All six officers who responded -- Osterman, Pike, Thomas Slade, Guy Abrams, Jay Johnstone and Joehonny Reese were placed on administrative leave, which is standard procedure.

No, he became more than a minor threat.

[WackyKat]

What law did the police break? Were they not under a duty to detain him, especially after he threw a right hook into the face of one of the officers? And was the perp not under a duty to obey the officers?

yes and yes. I think the officers actions were totally justified.

But it is a fact that the struggle was obviously one factor in the man's death, and the coroner found it was the primary factor. Thus the homicide ruling

I've never said that the suspect was not at fault in his death.

[xzins]

I think the analogy of the car chase and crash is most apt.

The man was resisting arrest. His pre-existing condition led to his death DUE TO the resistance. Exactly the same as a car chase and wreck.

The police batons are used to subdue. When in the military, I was taught that It is immoral to cease force until one is certain the enemy is rendered harmless. It risks the life of the prisoner and of the soldier to cease force at any point prior to the complete subjugation of the prisoner.

Additionally, In a legitimate detention (which this was) the worst outcome is not the death of the prisoner. It is the death of the captor due to negligence for personal safety.

[At _War_With_Liberals]

Anything BUT hit him hundreds of times with clubs in the space of 1 minute- a beating that any reasonable person would realize could result in severe injury or possible death. They knew this, and could care less. This fat guy, beaten down, on his knees for half the tape, was not the serious threat that they assert.


I am no Kumbaya-nic or bleeding heart. He needed to be locked up and taken in. But I will not take the positions dictated by PD and govt LAWYERS and preach them as gospel. To defend their position as infallible, like most here are, is not right.

[At _War_With_Liberals]

"I have a problem with ANYONE attacking a police officer."

As do I. What's your point.

And you have a problem with anyone questioning law enforcement tactics. Or, with law enforcement attacking a citizen. My problem is that 'restraint' became ultraviolence.