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What exactly do big government conservatives want to conserve?
ESR ^ | 12/03/03 | James Antle III

Posted on 12/03/2003 9:44:42 AM PST by freedom44

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1 posted on 12/03/2003 9:44:42 AM PST by freedom44
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To: ConservativeLawStudent
ping
2 posted on 12/03/2003 9:45:00 AM PST by freedom44
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To: freedom44
There was a liberal columnist years ago who really hit the nail on the head when it came to explaining how the people of the U.S. viewed their government. You have to remember that he was describing the scenario of the 1980s, in which the House of Representatives had been dominated by the Democrats for years, and the White House had been occupied by a Republican for 20 out of 24 years from 1968 to 1992.

To paraphrase:

"People elect Democrats to Congress so they can get as much money as possible from Washington. They elect Republicans to the White House so they can send as little money as possible to Washington."

3 posted on 12/03/2003 9:52:56 AM PST by Alberta's Child ("To freedom, Alberta, horses . . . and women!")
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To: freedom44
bump
4 posted on 12/03/2003 9:54:47 AM PST by Texas Federalist
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To: Alberta's Child
"People elect Democrats to Congress so they can get as much money as possible from Washington. They elect Republicans to the White House so they can send as little money as possible to Washington."

Now it should just read, "People elect Democrats and Republicans to Congress and the White House so they can get as much money as possible from Washington. Conservatives are an almost extinct species in Washington."

5 posted on 12/03/2003 9:56:03 AM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: freedom44
Excellent Article. That is why I say down with both parties. Maybe we can come up with a Christian party but we would not use the word christian in the party name ( do not want to offend too many Americans ) !
6 posted on 12/03/2003 9:57:49 AM PST by Independentamerican (Independent Freshman at the University of MD)
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To: billbears
Conservatives have always been a tiny minority in Washington. Most people don't like to admit this, but when it comes to Federal spending relative to taxes paid, the "red" states have long been the major beneficiaries of government largesse while the "blue" states have long been the biggest donors. Go figure.

7 posted on 12/03/2003 10:02:57 AM PST by Alberta's Child ("To freedom, Alberta, horses . . . and women!")
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To: freedom44
What exactly do big government conservatives want to conserve?

If suggestions are open, then I nominate 'social status and sinecures'.

8 posted on 12/03/2003 10:05:48 AM PST by headsonpikes (Spirit of '76 bttt!)
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To: billbears
You could also say..."Elected Democrats and Republicans try to get as much money as possible from anywhere they can".
9 posted on 12/03/2003 10:06:10 AM PST by stuartcr
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To: freedom44
Their jobs.
10 posted on 12/03/2003 10:06:44 AM PST by blowfish
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To: freedom44
Good article, but real changes come around in politics only once in a generation or so (the Progressive era, FDR, Reagan). Realizing that they won't bring about any sort of conservative revolution or restoration, President Bush and his team have reconciled themselves to being timeservers or tinkerers or patchers and menders who keep things running and make minor changes. It's clear that he does too little to rein in spending and the growth of government, but the role of interim statesman who keeps things going without making major changes isn't dishonorable or offensive -- most of the time it's inevitable.

Now that the Cold War is over, the "capitalism is freedom" message is less likely to win people over. They'll support free markets against Communism or Islamic fundamentalism and where greater market freedom looks to be the clear path to progress they'll support it, but in the age of globalization, people are more apt to look for security from the consequences of the ever accelerating worldwide movement of people, goods and money. Ronald Reagan's clear connection between freer markets and a stronger America won over many people who aren't convinced that the same connection necessarily applies in the era of globalization. That doesn't mean that creating new government entitlement programs is the way to go, but conservatives might consider that there is also something "conservative" in the current suspicion of markets and commercialization.

11 posted on 12/03/2003 11:26:39 AM PST by x
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To: x
>>>Realizing that they won't bring about any sort of conservative revolution or restoration...

President Bush and his administration are more then just a bunch of caretakers. Bush`s tax cuts are found in the basic conservative ideology called supply side economics. Being strong on national and homeland security issues is another bedrock part of the conservative agenda. However, the education bill, the FarmBill and the new Medicare prescription drug legislation, is not part of the conservative agenda. Those who believe Bush is doing a great job in co-opting Democratic issues, is either ignorant, naive or both! In the short term, it may be good politics, but the question is, who will pay the price when the final bill comes due.

12 posted on 12/03/2003 12:20:33 PM PST by Reagan Man (The few, the proud, the conservatives.)
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To: freedom44
Milton Friedman, the revered Nobel Prize-winning economist, declares this unbridled spending "is the single greatest deterrent to faster economic growth in the United States today."

Another Nobel Prize economist, James Buchanan, worries that by allowing government to grow so rapidly ahead of the pace of the private sector, we are "killing the goose of free enterprise that lays the golden eggs."

-- Stephen Moore, Club for Growth

13 posted on 12/06/2003 2:23:11 PM PST by Anthem (Voting is one thing... but culture trumps any campaign. What are you doing for the culture?)
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To: x
but conservatives might consider that there is also something "conservative" in the current suspicion of markets and commercialization.

Please elaborate.

14 posted on 12/06/2003 2:24:17 PM PST by Anthem (Voting is one thing... but culture trumps any campaign. What are you doing for the culture?)
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To: Anthem
There is "conservatism" and "Conservatism." "Small-c" conservatism is defined by caution, prudence, and resistance to change. Some people can be "small-c" conservative without being "capital-C" Conservative.

European conservatism has tended more to the "small-c" variety, while modern American Conservatism has been more of a continuation or renaissance of classical nineteenth century liberalism. It favors freer markets, lower taxes, less government. European Conservatives have made more of an accomodation with the state.

Even here in the US, there are a few things to consider:

1) One person might favor tradition, continuity, stability, and established moral values without being very enthusiastic about markets and capitalism. Another may celebrate the creative destruction, dynamism, protean freedom, and constant change of market-driven economies. Who's more conservative? Or more Conservative? It may not be so easy to answer, especially for those who are not politically active or involved in the corporate sector. True, the first person may be a Democrat, but the same may also true of the second person, and his support for capitalism may be hinged on its disruption of older social patterns and traditions.

2) You'll find people who went big for Reagan and voted for him to bring prosperity to America. But in Reagan's day, the American economy was thought of as the national economy: GM, US Steel, farmers, miners, and fisheries. Such people might not find that they really have a horse to ride in current American politics. It's certainly possible to argue that they'd better adapt to the changes in the economy, but I'd be hard pressed to deny that many of them were "conservative" -- indeed, more "conservative" than many who embraced globalization and the changes it's brought the country.

3) If you look at the founders of modern American "big C" Conservatism, most of them were born before the Second World War and the Great Depression. Some were born before the First World War, and a few even before the beginning of the Twentieth Century. They were trying to get back to a less statist, more decentralized, more laissez-faire world that they had known first hand, and that had seemed to work for them and their parents and the country as a whole.

Today, George Bush, born after WWII, has lived with the leviathan state all his life. It's not likely that he'll want to go back to something that he doesn't know first hand. Nor is it likely that today's Americans are the kind of people who would want or could get on in that older world. Could we restore what disappeared before we were born without going through wrenching dislocations? Might wholesale rollback, not cause great troubles without bringing the desired consequences. Even if one assumes that pre-New Deal America was better, the way to get there safely is by steady persuasion, gradual evolution, and piecemeal steps, not by any revolutionary attempts to restore what's long gone and can't stand on its own any longer.

That would be the "small-c" conservative way of achieving "Big-C" Conservative goals. President Bush's critics are right in pointing out that he's not following it and taking him to task. But it would be a mistake to overlook Bush's "small-c" conservative virtues, and their absence in some of his more militant critics.

For whatever it's worth, the critics also have a point about the failure or inherent contradiction of a "conservative welfare state." Look at Europe. A welfare state brings with it a class that has a stake in increasing the size and power of government and getting as much for government as it can out of the pockets of the people. Welfare economies also shift people's economic calculations: they come to rely more on what government can do for them and less on their own efforts. They marry less, save less, and have fewer children. Conservative protectionist systems have similar contradictions and failings. Such dreams haven't panned out in practice.

But it is still true that taking government entirely out of the economy and leaving no opportunity to deal with serious problems at the federal level would be a dangerous proceding. And a healthy "small-c" conservative dose of gradualism and satisfaction with half-measures would be better in disentangling government and the economy (to the degree that the two can be separated) than a more radical, imprudent, and heedless approach.

15 posted on 12/07/2003 11:44:58 AM PST by x
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To: x
Ok, thanks. Yours is a prescription that reflects your own conservatism (in the behavioral sense). I recall that Rand described herself as a radical 50 years ago, in the context you describe. I tend to think that we need radical (albeit rational -- which leaves much of the Lew-knee forum out) writers and artists evangelizing self-government and Laissez faire economic systems to set the direction culturally while conservative managers get us there.
16 posted on 12/11/2003 8:52:06 PM PST by Anthem (Voting is one thing... but culture trumps any campaign. What are you doing for the culture?)
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To: freedom44
Most people like government spending as long as the spending is for something they like or it lines their pockets.

I always say trillions for the military, but not one red cent for social programs. That's because I love the military and hate social programs.
17 posted on 12/11/2003 8:57:54 PM PST by vladog
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To: freedom44
Of course Dubya isn't a conservative. However, the difference between him and his political opponents is that conservatives have a seat at his table. Conservatives have no such place in the Democratic Party.
18 posted on 12/11/2003 8:58:57 PM PST by squidly
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To: freedom44
Bump
19 posted on 01/16/2004 8:59:41 PM PST by Kay Soze (“The Bush immigration plan is heavily dependent on enforcement agencies we don't have”- WFBuckley)
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To: freedom44
Bump
20 posted on 01/16/2004 9:17:55 PM PST by Kay Soze (“The Bush immigration plan is heavily dependent on enforcement agencies we don't have”- WFBuckley)
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