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To: Torie
Yes, of course many gays are not effeminate in their behavior, except to the extent that homosexuality is by definition perceived as an expression of effeminacy. In past societies where this was not the case, the proportion of men who engaged in homoerotic behavior that were not effeminate was far greater.

From a historical standpoint, the controversy has always involved men taking the subordinate position - whether in sexual matters or otherwise. While this almost states the obvious, what I mean to suggest is that the 'active' (or superordinate) sexual role has much less often been a matter of social condemnation. While there have been some exceptions, most societies have evidenced a great deal of conflict in the course of determining which males are legitimate objects of sexual subordination..

The Athenians resolved the matter by prohibiting the assumption of the 'passive' position by adult citizens, and constructing homoerotic relations around an age-differentiated hierarchy (slaves & foreigners were also fair game). The Spartans were one of those rare societies where homosexual relations between social equals was evidently encouraged. With marriage prohibited until age 30, men formed relations within their military unit which was thought to foster unit solidarity and battlefield valor.

Nonetheless, the Spartan example is an aberration from the historical norm, which has generally extended little regard (at best) to 'passive' homosexual behavior by adult men. The perceptual innovation that I referred to previously - in fact not fully realized until the 20th Century - was in conflating 'active' & 'passive' homoerotic behavior into a singular identity presumptive of effeminacy. This is a largely artificial construction which is why it may already be breaking down less than a century later.

Stated differently, the historical transition involved that from a subject-defined to an object-choice sexual identity which originated in its earliest form with the late 19th Century psychodynamic theory of sexual development.
104 posted on 12/01/2003 9:20:13 PM PST by AntiGuv (When the countdown hits zero, something's gonna happen..)
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To: AntiGuv
what I mean to suggest is that the 'active' (or superordinate) sexual role has much less often been a matter of social condemnation.

The above sentence does not seem to fit into your thesis. Did you mean to say "more" rather than "less?" I thought you thesis was that adult male sexual domination was what was valued, rather than who was dominated.

106 posted on 12/01/2003 9:34:50 PM PST by Torie
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