Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: Cannoneer No. 4
Why are we not using ex-Iraqi Army vehicles?

Recce: approximately 600 recce vehicles available including PT-76; AML-60; AML-90; BRDM-1/2; EE-9. AIFV: approximately 800 to 900 BMP-1/2. APCs: possibly 2,000 × APCs including some MT-LB; ERC-90; Panhard M3; PSZH-IV; BTR-50; BTR-60; BTR-152; EE-11; OT-62; OT-64; Walid; Type 531; 20 × M113A1; M-60P; BMD-1.

What a hodgepodge. I can only imagine the variety of maintenance and spares problems, aside from any modifications that might have come from original owners. Sounds like Saddam had to buy anywhere he could to replace his 1991 losses.

PT-76: Tracked amphibious light tank, not particularly more RPG-resistant than a Stryker. Also built by the Chinese, sometimes seen with an 85mm gun instead of the Russian 76mm:

AML-60; AML-90; French 4-wheeled APC, no room for a full squad [there's no room for a full squad in a Humvee, either] and the 90mm gun of the AML-90 uses non US-standard ammo. The French would probably embargo sales of any to us- I'd be REAL doubtful about using captured Iraqi ammo- but we could probably get it from the South Africans, or replace the 90mm gun with a 25mm from a Bradley. The AML-90 was the standard armored car of the French Foreign Legion cavalry 20 years ago; they switched to an amphib instead.

BRDM-1/2; 4-wheeled Russian, about the size of Humvees; gasoline engined; fireball deathtraps if they hit mines; one of the few captured vehicles the Israelis will have next to nothing to do with.

EE-9. The Brazilian *Cascavel*, a 6-wheeler. Again, a non-standard 90mm gun and only carrying a 3-man crew. Useful for airfield and motor pool defense and such projects if some amo for that main gun can be arranged- NOT the same ammo as for the French AML 90, unless the Iraqis had gotten creative.

800 to 900 BMP-1/2.

Now we're getting somewhere. Essentially the Soviet version of a Bradley, with a decent engine and usable armament. 73mm recoilless rocket launcher for the BMP-1 [I don't know if there's a canister round available for it but I don't think so] and a 30mm similar to the 25mm on our Bradley on the BMP-2. They might be better to rebuild and save for the reemerging Iraqi Army we're organizing and training, rather than run them to death on routine patrols over the next couple of years. But they're vulnerable to mass RPG attacks, as the Russians learned in Afghanistan and Chechnya, and the Russians are turning theirs into light tanks/LAV killers, fitting them with 100mm guns with a 4KM kill range. They're amphibious, probably not a big deal in Iraq. The top armor is weak, the fuel tanks are in the rear doors, and there's limited elevation for the main gun.

MT-LB; Here we go. Possibly the best and most versatile vehicle to come from the former Soviet toybox. THE vehicle of choice for Russian infantrymen in Chcehnya, particularly the versions with the 30mm gun Kliver turret fitted. If a tracked Infantry squad carrier is required, this is the one to go with, depending on numbers available. Cream of the crop.

ERC-90; The French Marine, Foreign Legion and cavalry 6x6 armored car that replaced the AML90. Much improved 90mm gun, said to have been designed to deal with a T55 or T62 tank on equal terms headon. Amphibious, of course, and also available in a twin 30mm gun AA version.

Panhard M3;

An armored box atop a 4-wheel AML-90 chassis. Makes a pretty fair armored ambulance, or half-squad carrier. Used to be used by the Irish UN peacekeepers, and called *the bathtub* by them, as it looks like one upside-down.

PSZH-IV; Hungarian 4-wheeled version of the BRDM; AKA the FUG70. Diesel engined, but very thin armor [amphibious] and lightly armed [14.5mm gun] Probably could hand a Stryker its lunch, but an armored car better suited to MP and convoy escort use than infantry use.

BTR-50; Essentially a PT76 tank with an open crew compartment instead of a turret and gun. Amphibious. No crew exit doors, they just scamper over the sides. The Czech OT-62 is similar but improved. Replaced in Soviet service long ago by the BMP and MT-LB.

BTR-60; Eight-wheel Russian armored cars, earlier versions of the 4th generation BTR-90. Gasoline engines in early versions. RPG magnets. Kill the tires on one side, and they're a sitting duck. Thin top armor, and a 15-pound AT mine from beneath or a 82mm mortar round from above turns one into scrap.

BTR-152; Basicly a 6x6 truck with armored cab and cargo bed. Mechanically dubious, but if we wanted to field some instant gun trucks, these would be a good start. Likely could be reworked to use old M35A2 multifuel Diesel engines easily enough.

EE-11; The Urutu or Jararaca, from Brazil. Lightly armed, a 6x6 very similar to the Cadillac Gage V-150. Another amphibian.

OT-62; The chassis of a PT76 tank without a turret and an open-topped personnel compartment instead; a rough equivalent to the Marine LTVP. There's a recoilless rifle version used as a tank destroyer that was a pretty capable threat to anything less than an M1 tank, which could become a personnel carrier pretty quicklyt by removing the gun. Probably a better use for the chassis than the PT76s, which could be cannibalized for parts to keep the APCs going for a while. Nothing spectacular, but an okay bread-and-butter tracked APCs. India and Pakistan still use the things, I think, suggesting they're rugged enough to last under pretty harsh conditions of use.

OT-64; The Skot. The Czech and Polish idea of what the BTR 60/70 should have been, based on the Czech Tatra 8x8 truck chassis. Many armament and equipment versions, essentially what the Stryker hopes to be. The early Shots were much better vehicles than the Russian BTR 60/70, the BTR 80/90 are probably about equal.

The Finns were impressed enough with theirs that they copied them as the 6X6 SISU. If I had to be in a wheeled APC that took a hit from a TM56 antitank mine, this'd probably be it.

Walid; Egyptian version of the BTR-152, but 4X4, powered by a 168 HP Diesel. 3/8-inch/8mm armor plate, arranged a little differently than a BTR 152.

Type 531; Chinese version of an M113, but with only 4 roadwheels. Sized for smallish Orientals. Mechanically doubtful, but mounts a 12,7mm DShK mg, easily replacably with an M2 .50 or very usable itself. If Wal-Mart ever starts selling APCs, this'll be the model they push.

20 × M113A1; Good ol' Buckets. I hope these are getting the use they deserve. If not in use, I'd hope they get these 20 up and running and park them on a C130 airstrip just in case we suddenly need about 500 people in armored vehicles in or around one of the Iraqi cities. Back 'em up with some BMD's and we'd have an immediately availabvle reaction force not having to think about mines on the roads they were taking to the problem, at least; once they got there it'd be another matter.

M-60P; M113 copy from Serbia, said to be a pretty good one. Also a neat AAA version with 3 20mm AA guns, that'd make a nice countersniper weapon.

BMD-1. The Russian airborne's all-purpose workhorse. Amphib, with the same 73mm low-pressure gun-rocket launcher of the BMP-1. Now that we've put the Anti-RPG slat cages on the Strykers, it might make sense to park a few dozen BMDs on a C-130 capable airfield in the event we need to airlift a couple of companies of tracked infantry somewhere in a hurry. I bet the 73mm gun could be replaced with a .50 easily enough, maybe a pair of 'em. And of course they can be airdropped...the Russians do it with the crews inside.

133 posted on 11/24/2003 6:03:24 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies ]


To: archy; cavtrooper21
That is one helluva post.

IF the need for armored vehicles is so great, why is more use not made of what is available in theater?

I am mostly concerned about the ex-Iraqi wheeled armor. We took our guys out of Bradleys and M113's. If we are going to put them back in tracks they may as well be the ones they came out of. The 82nd and 101st could use some tracks, if they would let them.

Seems like the AML's and the Cascavels and the ERC-90's could be used alongside MP ASV's. The whole damn country is an ammo dump. Put out a reward for French and Brazilian 90mm and some will appear. I don't expect they will have a huge number of main gun targets to service. Do the French make a canister round for their gun?

The Panhard and the PSZH-IV appear useful for motorized patrol. The Hungarians are on our side.

2nd ACR should grab up all the BTR-60's and practice being a BTR Brigade Combat Team.

You probably have some hands-on experience with the BTR-152. I think this would work. Mechanical reliability aside, IF the need for armored patrol vehicles is that dire, BTR-152's are cheap and available. The Poles and the Romanians are on our side. Reengine them with stuff out of Saddam's motor pool.

Give the Urutu to the MP's to run with ASV's.

What excuse do they have for not using every running OT-84 in Iraq?

I think Humvee riders could ride in Walids. Haven't those been around since the Suez Crisis?

135 posted on 11/24/2003 6:50:21 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Old soldiers never die. They just go to the commissary parking lot. and regroup.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies ]

To: Ranger
ping
148 posted on 12/04/2003 8:35:35 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Old soldiers never die. They just go to the commissary parking lot and regroup.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies ]

To: Ranger
ping
151 posted on 01/01/2004 2:01:44 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies ]

To: archy
Re your #133:

Very interesting post - thanks!

It's kind of a shame so many Iraqi tanks etc. got blown up, when we might be using a few of them to protect our troops over there.

Why can't the main gun of one of those Soviet-type tanks be replaced with a 7.62mm Mini-Gun for Convoy support missions?

Do they generate sufficient electrical current to run one?

And if wer'e going to be getting all these vehicles blowed up so frequently, at least it seems economical to use captured enemy vehicles to absorb the abuse rather than the ones us Taxpayers have to pay for.

When we turn the Country back over to the Iraqi authorities, they can have their toys back modified compliments of the good ol' USA, rather than having US foot the bill for brand new equipment.

Of course there is too much money to be made by politicians, beauraucrats and contractors alike to allow anything that makes too much sense to happen, isn't there?

BTW; In Nam, we were told once, they used to pack hot asphalt between the door panels and under the plywood floor boards of their vehicles, and apparently it didn't weigh much more than equivalent steel armor but was quite effective. I wonder if someone over there could test this theory on some junked vehicles just for hoots & hollers.
226 posted on 01/01/2004 10:55:01 PM PST by Uncle Jaque ("We need a Revival; Not a Revolution;... a Committment; Not a New Constitution..." -S. GREEN)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 133 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson