Army Seeks Short-Term Payoff From Future Combat Systems

National Defense Magazine ^ | December 2003 | Sandra I. Erwin

[mystery-ak]

Do not get him anything now other than phone cards...all he will be able to take with him is a shaving kit, change of underwear and a few personal items......wait til he graduates from boot camp.

[Tailback]

He probably can't have anything personal during basic training. A nice leatherman or SOG multi-tool or a gift certificate to Ranger-Joe's (like the other freeper mentioned) is a great idea.

[Trust but Verify]

Thanks. That is kinda what I thought.

[Voice in your head]

I'm not sure if this HMMWV hit a mine or not, but this is what it looks like, when it happens. I know because one of mine was destroyed when it hit an anti-tank mine and it looked exactly like that. It was the same tire that hit it. The only difference is that mine was the "hard top" model - the type that is partially shown in the right of the photo. The driver got two shattered ankles. The gunner smashed his grill on the .50 cal. The other 3 personnel were uninjured - not even a bruise.

I was later told of some kind of kevlar or other type of matting that can be put down on the floor of the HMMWV, to protect against any shrapnel, but we were unable to get it. It is necessary, because you can't stick sandbags under the brake and gas pedals. However, from that point on, we never drove off the roads again. Just like in Bosnia - stay on the road.

We didn't think there was any threat from landmines, given the heavy presence of friendly forces in the area and the number of times that we had driven in that particular area. Either that mine had been there for a while and a whole lot of people got lucky, before us, or Haji pulled a slicky-boy when nobody was looking - and did a good job of camouflaging it. But, once we were wise to this threat, we never got hit again. Just as we were wise to the IED threat and never got hit by those either. In Baghdad, where so much of the violence is concentrated, the need for protection against landmines is minimal (zero, if you abide by our new rule of not driving on any dirt) because almost every part of the city that you will patrol is paved. As previously stated, the best defense against IEDs is vigilance. The guy in the turret will still be killed by an IED, in an M1114. If you sit Qatar-6 style, then you can detect the IEDs before you hit them - and they are not too difficult to spot, in a city. A bunch of wires, leading to a burlap bag, trash bag, rock pile, trash pile, et cetera - kind of sticks out. Additional countermeasures include driving in the middle lane of a highway, to ensure that you are as far from the blast of an unseen IED as possible; be alert for explosives on telephone polls or pedestrian overpasses; never drive under an overpass without clearing (Haji likes to chuck grenades at you); use Bradleys whenever possible - they provide all the advantages of the M1114 and almost none of the disadvantages. There should never be a patrol composed exclusively of HMMWVs, if there are FMC Bradleys sitting around, unused.

The photos below are of an M1114 that also struck a mine with its left front tire, on April 1, 2003, in Afghanistan. None of the occupants was injured, though it is worth noting that the blast only left a crater about 2 feet wide and 32 inches deep. The one that my vehicle hit left a hole 2 to 3 times that size. This may be because the mine had been placed upside down, to create a larger surface area for the vehicle to initiate the mine - not sure.

[Nebr FAL owner]

The South African & Rhodesian rigs are designed to be mine resistant in the extreme as for the others they are all very nice but expensive & slow to make . As for up armoring the idea ain't to turn a Humvee into a tank but to give someone a decent chance against some little gomer letting fly with a cigar box sized IED loaded with nuts/bolts/nails etc from a range of say 10-20 feet .

[Voice in your head]

Over Christmas break, I met up with a soldier who was straight out of basic training and on his way to Iraq, soon. He was buying the basic stuff that enthusiastic new soldiers buy - gerber multi-tool, mini-maglite, some fancy knife, 550 cord, 100 MPH tape, etc. Buy your new soldier a surefire flashlight. The mini-mags that are popular among soldiers are useless. They are not bright enough and the batteries die too quickly. The LED light on a surefire lasts a lot longer, the lithium batteries hold up better in cold weather, and it is way brighter. Also, it can attach to his weapon and he can buy an IR filter for the lens, so that it can be used in conjunction with his night vision. Make sure you get him the right model, since not all attach to the weapons. And buy him extra batteries, from the manufacturer. They are not available in most stores, plus they are a lot cheaper when you buy from the manufacturer.

[Trust but Verify]

What a great suggestion! Thank you so much!

[Tailback]

I was a 19-D light cav scout in the Oregon National Guard for 10 years. Most of that (9 years) was as a gunner on the slicks "turtleback HMMWV" so I know exactly what you're talking about. I only did a .50 faceplant once, luckily just a bloody nose. One of the guys in my old platoon got something like 25% from VA for breaking his hip in the gunner's hatch. Good drivers are worth their weight in gold to HMMWV gunners.

[Tailback]

Great idea on the surefire! Especially if you throw in the IR filter and red tip up lens. Get the LED head for it too.

[Qatar-6]

It's a tough tactical equation no denying

Close yourself in and lose situational awareness or open yourself to the initiating blast

Not saying gun hummers are worthless. A mix of guns and dismounts is probably ideal

The key thing though is to react aggressively. You've got a better chance of getting the bad guys if you dismount and chase them

Be careful of JRTC LL from the MILES war. It's a good training simulation - as good as we can do - but it is not combat.

In some ways it's a lot tougher

In other ways it's not as realistic

. Remember, everyone there is afraid of losing

But no one is afraid of DYING

Makes a big difference in how the bad guys set up to hit you

They want to live through it, if you stay on the vehicles, odds are you'll never catch them. There is no one tactical catch all, there are situations in which what you described is dead right and I should have caveated my statement

All things being equal though, I think you're better off dismounting and attacking the ambush than staying with the vehicle (if all you've got is small arms)

Good comments though

All the best

Qatar-6

[Qatar-6]

I would never advise a tank or a bradley crewman to dismount from their vehicle in an ambush

Nor would I advise anyone in a hummer with a mounted crew served weapon (50 Cal, MK-19) to dismount. the firepower is too valuable

It's everyone else with small arms. Vehicle mounted systems can suppress, but unless the terrain is favorable (and if the bad guys are smart they'll set up an ambush where it isn't) they don't have much of a chance of chasing down foot mobile attackers in a semi urban area

Go after them, every minute you stay in contact increases your chance of getting them.

This ins't Vietnam or the JRTC. There's no company level baited ambush waiting for you. Just at most a couple of dozen assholes running for their lives after taking what they thought was a free shot

All the best

Qatar-6

[Tailback]

Be careful of JRTC LL from the MILES war. It's a good training simulation - as good as we can do - but it is not combat

Amen. However, I also shoot with the state service rifle team and I have personally been involved with a platoon of 19-D's obliterating a company of anti-tank 11-B on HMMWV's. If you know what you're doing, it's really not that hard. We crushed them with reverse slope ambushes and everyone except the gunners were dismounted. I don't disagree with dismounted combat, I just have a serious beef with what we are putting our Cav, MP's and motorized infantry in. There are much much better options availale RIGHT NOW that can be saving lives in Iraq.

[Tailback]

This ins't Vietnam or the JRTC. There's no company level baited ambush waiting for you. Just at most a couple of dozen assholes running for their lives after taking what they thought was a free shot

Mmmmmm.... good point there. Sounds to me like a great place for mounted infantry to kick ass, just put them in the right kind of vehicle.

[sauropod]

"So don't tell me the merits of a turbine over a diesel in an M1A1. The marginal differences in such things matters not a whit."

You don't know WTF you are talking about.

[FreedomPoster]

>>trash the M16 in favor of something like the M14 (maybe an FN/FAL) but in carbine length, and in 7.62x51 caliber.

Ever seen the muzzle flash from a cut-down FAL carbine, with 7.62x51? It is quite impressive. Not a good thing when you're having a lot of night engagements.

I believe the Stryker units have more designated marksmen with M1A's in the organization than previous infantry TO&Es. This is A Good Thing. There have been a couple of reports related to this in Stryker threads.

[Criminal Number 18F]

Thanks to all who pinged me here.

A few comments: None of the alternatives people are suggesting will protect adequately against RPG or IEDs. The M1114 is ineffective agaiinst RPGs and not perfect on mines or IEDs. Yes, it beats a cotton T-shirt. We had both M1114 uparmored HMMWVs and Toyota Tacomas hit by mines/IEDs and the outcome was broadly similar. Both vehicles were thoroughly destroyed; all aboard survived, mostly wounded.

The SISU, Stryker, VAB and other foreign APCs/recon vehicles, all are as vulnerable to an RPG as a HMMWV is, ditto mines and IEDs.

Then there is a philosophical question -- in the sense of, philosophy of war. Armoring your vehicles is en excellent defensive play, but the way we will win this war is offensively, not by improving or even perfecting our defense. Not that our defense should not be improved -- what ranger is pointing out is worth paying some attention to -- but we shouldn't lose sight of where it fits in the whole war plan.

That said, somehow I doubt that 3000+ civilian HMMWVs were built in a month. Only about 10,000 military HMMWVs and 11,000 civilian H1s have been made in the last ten years - not even 100 of each a month. The Hummer H2 has nothing in common with the military vehicle but the styling, and is unsuited for military use; it's basically a badge-engineered Tahoe for conspicuous consumers.

The multiple variants of the military HMMWV already create a maintenance nightmare. Even the spare wheels don't interchange, which shows you just what a government monopoly like TACOM gets you. The trade-off is that the system is supposed to react quickly in wartime. Unfortunately, the Army's massive Stateside bureaucracy remains self-absorbed and unengaged.

Yes, we should protect our soldiers, and ranger is showing us how an involved citizen can rally the government to do so, but realize that it is our ability to take the war to the enemy (even this elusive enemy) that will give us the win.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Armored Trucker Infantry

Ridgeback Road Security Vehicle

[FreedomPoster]

That's an impressive post / collection. Based on past posts, I expected to see Archy's name at the bottom. ;-)