Army Seeks Short-Term Payoff From Future Combat Systems

National Defense Magazine ^ | December 2003 | Sandra I. Erwin

[SLB]

The first time I saw a Ruger Blackhawk in .30 carbine was 1970 in Vietnam. Great pistol to shoot, fun and great stopping power.

[Ranger]

Thanks for the ping. Could you use your magic list and send this information out.

The O'Reilly Factor Radio show on Friday from 12-2 PM will discuss various topics including armored humvee production or lack thereof. Here is the way to find the station in your area with times along with a call in number. Given the excellent commentary on the FR threads on this topic, I'd love to see a wider audience involved. Unfortunately the military isn't commenting much on the topic and civilians can only carry the conversation so far. Perhaps in some manner we can get more uparmored humvees or other alternatives out the factory door and into iraq and save a few lives.

The show is rebroadcast at various times in syndication during the day. The website below can direct you to stations and times in your area if you are interested. http://www.billoreilly.com/stationfinder The call in number is 1-877-966-7746. (1-877-9-NOSPIN).

[Cannoneer No. 4]

There are alternatives to the M1114.

Alvis Vickers Simba is a 4x4 wheeled Armoured Personnel Carrier (APC) primarily used in internal security and counter insurgency roles. It can be fitted with 0.50" calibre machine gun or 25mm cannon, ideally suited for urban police duties, and can be fitted with a turreted riot gun and associated security equipment.

Alvis Vickers MLV

The armouring system uses an innovative solution of appliqué armour panels that are placed between the inner and outer skins of the vehicle. This allows MLV to easily upgrade its armour protection to meet the mission requirements, and enables through life technology insertion to take advantage of new armour materials, as they become available. Protection systems from STANAG level 1 to STANAG level 4 are available for MLV. In addition every vehicle includes full mine protection for the crew.

MLV is available with an overhead weapon station, with day and night vision, and a range of different weapons to take on diverse mission scenarios. MLV can be network enabled through secure digital radio systems.

The MLV vehicle is based on the Iveco LMV vehicle for which there is a requirement in Italy for 2500 vehicles. MLV provides protected mobility for up to 4 people in the UK configuration, although the Italian version provides accommodation for 5 people, with a longer wheel base version providing protection for 7. This longer wheelbase option allows the family to expand and meet new requirements in the UK and overseas.

The UK MoD has recently selected AVL to supply 486 Alvis Multipurpose Light Vehicles (MLV) for the Future Command and Liaison Vehicle programme (FCLV). In this role, MLV will be used for a wide range of battlefield missions, with variants for infantry, artillery, armour, engineer and signals users, and will replace the ageing vehicles that are currently used in these roles. These include the Alvis Saxon, the Alvis Spartan, the Alvis FV430 series and unarmoured Land Rovers.

Alvis Vickers RG-32M

Originally developed with a benign appearance for civilian armoured patrol use, it provides a viable alternative to up-armoured vehicles. Crew protection in the hull consists of an all-steel welded armoured monocoque capsule to which chassis sub-frames are bolted. The crew compartment is also fitted with a tropical roof and air-conditioning as an aid to crew comfort. Windows are made of ballistic laminated glass. The crew compartment is protected to a level of 5.56 x 45mm NATO ball ammunition and against a variety of grenades, firebombs and thrown missiles. Protection includes the firewall, roof and floor (unlike many up-armoured vehicles). RG-32M protects occupants against a single-tank mine (7kg of TNT) under any wheel.

Textron Cadillac-Gage Peacekeeper II armored vehicle employs the latest technology for missions such as law enforcement, riot control, counter-terrorism, SWAT operations, convoy protection or base security. With a top speed of 70 mph, PeaceKeeper II accommodates an eight-person team, while providing crew protection from 7.62mm AP. The compact profile is ideal for urban environments where excellent maneuverability is a necessity.

Australian Timoney/ADI, Ltd. Bushmaster

GDLS RG-31

GDLS RG-32 Mk II

GDLS RG-31

AV Technology Corporations, now part of General Dynamics Land Systems, developed the Dragoon family of 4 x 4 light armoured vehicles

Pandur. In production. In service with Austria (68), Belgium (54 built in Belgium), Kuwait (70 built in the USA), Slovenia (10 plus local production) and the USA (50 under production by AV Technology Corp of the USA). Where are these 50 Pandurs?

Technical Solutions Group, Inc. Rhino

TSG Buffalo

SAMIL MOTOR CORPORATION (PTY) LTD. Casspir and Mamba

South African Buffel

Rhodesian Cougar. Anniston Army Depot Forward at Camp Arifjan could be making these.

Rhodesian Kudu

Rhodesian Leopard

Rhodesian Rhino

[Cannoneer No. 4]

ping

[Qatar-6]

Bingo

The way to be safe is to have the ability to dismount quickly and maneuver against the ambush

Also to have everyone facing out looking trained to execute the reaction to contact battle drill

The best thing to do when you get hit is dismount and return fire, Not everyone will be in the kill zone, those guys who aren't dismount immediately and roll up the flank of the ambush

. The key thing is: MAINTAIN CONTACT, the little fucks have just exposed themselves. Your reaction forces are alerted and homing in, the longer you can keep them in contact the better the chance of them running into someone else when they finally break contact (if they ever manage to) or being killed captured on site.

It's hard to do all that from an armored Hummer.

Low intensity conflict like this is a contact sport and it's best played on foot

Bad guys aren't stupid (well... a few of them are) if they see a trucks with people facing out in every direction and long guns, looking alert, they'll probably wait for someone who to drive along who's brain's in neutral

It's never just a drive from point A to point B. People who think an Armored Hummer is the solution are kidding themselves. It's a limited use tool, that's all. All the best

Qatar-6

[exnavy]

Some interesting concepts in that group of vehicles.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

pinged.

Have you considered posting this as a vanity thread? You might even tell how you became involved in this issue.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

The Rhodesians did that on a shoe-string 30 years ago. This is low-tech that works. We could be putting Iraqis to work building similar vehicles cheaper and faster than M1114s.

[Tailback]

I respectfully disagree with you. Most of the KIA are from the IED's that initiate the attack, not from the small arms fire that follows. Hardened vehicles will reduce the casualties from IED's, and mines. Having gunshields on HMMWV's allow the gunner to establish covering fire for dismounts to maneuver instead of making the gunner a sniper target. Ask the OPFOR at JRTC about picking off gunners in HMMWV's or ask the Rangers that were in Somalia about the life expectancy of a HMMWV gunner in a firefight.

[Ranger]

I want to draw attention to the issue and not to myself so I've not posted a vanity.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

You must do as you think best. I think you would get more listeners with a vanity.

[Tailback]

Is this the O'reilly radio show you're talking about or the TV show? I'll definately listen in and maybe call also if it's the radio show.

[SJSAMPLE]

IIRC, the conversion that "Up-Armors" the HMMWV is not done by AM General (GM), but by an outside firm. The problem is not the supply of HMMWVs, but the capacity to modify the chassis. Commercial HMMWVs have NO IMPACT on the ability to supply the armored version.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

The best thing to do when you get hit is dismount and return fire

You are a light infantryman, aren't you? From your perspective, with your experience, dismounting to fight makes perfect sense. Sounds like suicide to me, but I was a tanker. My firepower, mobility and shock are on the vehicle. If I'm afoot in an ambush, something is seriously < messed > up.

Returning fire, immediately, in huge volume, is the key. Too bad we gave all our old Quad .50's away. One advantage of tracked armored vehicles is that the tracks themselves can kill the enemy, and driving right over the ambushers is often an option.

Low intensity conflict like this is a contact sport and it's best played on foot

For cordon and search operations that's absolutely right, but much of the battlefield now consists of streets, roads and highways. How do you do convoy security dismounted?

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Post 182

Radio show

[Trust but Verify]

Off topic, I need a little help from some former/current military folks. We are not a military family, due to the fact that I am one of seven girls in our family. My sister was in the Marines for 3 years in the 80's, and our father was in the Air Force in the late 40's, but until now, that's been it.

My nephew is leaving on Jan 14th for Ft Benning and basic training. My sister is having a farewell party for him and I have no idea what kind of a gift to bring for him. First of all, I don't know what kind of personal items recruits are allowed to have with them, secondly, what might he have use for during those weeks?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

U.S. senator tours Fairfield armoring company (beefing up Humvees to protect our troops

[Cannoneer No. 4]

ping

[doug from upland]

Thanks for the ping.

[Cannoneer No. 4]

Give him a gift certificate from Ranger Joe's for use when he graduates.