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1 posted on 11/22/2003 4:23:29 PM PST by dennisw
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To: dennisw

2 posted on 11/22/2003 4:28:58 PM PST by Holly_P
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To: dennisw
bump.

I only read half (so far), but it is very enlightening. Thank you for posting it.
3 posted on 11/22/2003 4:31:49 PM PST by stands2reason (What you see at fight club is a generation of men raised by women. ~Chuck Palahniuk)
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To: dennisw
The Fourth Crusade (1201-1204) ran aground when it was seduced into a web of Byzantine politics, which the Westerners never fully understood. They had made a detour to Constantinople to support an imperial claimant who promised great rewards and support for the Holy Land. Yet once he was on the throne of the Caesars, their benefactor found that he could not pay what he had promised. Thus betrayed by their Greek friends, in 1204 the Crusaders attacked, captured, and brutally sacked Constantinople, the greatest Christian city in the world. Pope Innocent III, who had previously excommunicated the entire Crusade, strongly denounced the Crusaders. But there was little else he could do. The tragic events of 1204 closed an iron door between Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox, a door that even today Pope John Paul II has been unable to reopen. It is a terrible irony that the Crusades, which were a direct result of the Catholic desire to rescue the Orthodox people, drove the two further—and perhaps irrevocably—apart.

That's putting the results mildly. The 4th Crusade did more to help the Muslims than just about any other military blunder in history. Up until then, the Byzantine Empire -- and Constantinople in particular -- had held out strongly against Muslim attempts to spread into the Balkans. After it was sacked, a Norman ruler was installed for a little more than half a century. The Byzantines eventually got their country back, but the empire and Constantinople were so weakened that it was only a matter of time -- about 200 years as it turned out -- before the Muslims broke through.

Almost all the religious strife in the Balkans these days can be traced back to the 4th crusades attack and sacking of Constantinople -- now called Istanbul.

4 posted on 11/22/2003 4:33:25 PM PST by Celtjew Libertarian (Shake Hands with the Serpent: Poetry by Charles Lipsig aka Celtjew http://books.lulu.com/lipsig)
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To: dennisw
It's long past time for something like this to be posted.
5 posted on 11/22/2003 4:35:37 PM PST by curmudgeonII
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To: dennisw
They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands

From the AlQueda training manual:

"The young men returning to Allah realized that Islam is not just performing rituals but a complete system:

Religion and government, worship and Jihad [holy war], ethics and dealing with people, and the Koran and sword.

The bitter situation that the nation has reached is a result of its divergence from Allah’s course and his righteous law for all places and times. That [bitter situation] came about as a result of its children’s love for the world, their loathing of death, and their abandonment of Jihad [holy war].

Unbelief is still the same. It pushed Abou Jahl- may Allah curse him-and Kureish’s valiant infidels to battle the prophet - God bless and keep him - and to torture his companions - may Allah’s grace be on them.

It is the same unbelief that drove Sadat, Hosni Mubarak, Gadhafi, Hafez Assad, Saleh, Fahed -Allah’s curse be upon the non-believing leaders - and all the apostate Arab rulers to torture, kill, imprison, and torment Moslems.

These young men realized that an Islamic government would never be established except by the bomb and rifle.

Islam does not coincide or make a truce with unbelief, but rather confronts it.

The confrontation that Islam calls for with these godless and apostate regimes, does not know Socratic debates, Platonic ideals nor Aristotelian diplomacy. But it knows the dialogue of bullets, the ideals of assassination, bombing, and destruction, and the diplomacy of the cannon and machine-gun.

The young came to prepare themselves for Jihad [holy war], commanded by the majestic Allah’s order in the holy Koran.

[Koranic verse:] “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies, and others besides whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know.”

UK/BM-9 TRANSLATION I present this humble effort to these young Moslem men who are pure, believing, and fighting for the cause of Allah. It is my contribution toward paving the road that leads to majestic Allah and establishes a caliphate according to the prophecy.

According to Imam Ahmad’s account, the prophet - God bless and keep him - said,... [A few lines of Hadith verses, not translated] UK/BM-10 TRANSLATION

FIRST LESSON GENERAL INTRODUCTION UK/BM-11 TRANSLATION We cannot resist this state of ignorance unless we unite our ranks, and adhere to our religion. Without that, the establishment of religion would be a dream or illusion that is impassible to achieve or even imagine its achievement.

Sheik Ibn Taimia - may Allah have mercy on him - said, “The interests of all Adam’s children would not be realized in the present life, nor in the next, except through assembly, cooperation, and mutual assistance. Cooperation is for achieving their interests and mutual assistance is for overcoming their adversities.

That is why it has been said, ‘man is civilized by nature.’ Therefore, if they unite there will be favorable matters that they do, and corrupting matters to avoid. They will be obedient to the commandment of those goals and avoidant of those immoralities. It is necessary that all Adam’s children obey.”

He [Sheik Inb Taimia] then says, “It should be understood that governing the people’s affairs is one of the greatest religious obligations.

In fact, without it, religion and world [affairs] could not be established. The interests of Adam’s children would not be achieved except in assembly, because of their mutual need. When they assemble, it is necessary to [have] a leader. Allah’s prophet - God bless and keep him - even said, ‘If three [people] come together let them pick a leader.’

He then necessitated the rule by one of a small, non-essential travel assembly in order to draw attention to the remaining types of assembly. Since Allah has obligated us to do good and avoid the unlawful, that would not be done except through force and lording. Likewise, the rest of w h a t he [God] obligated [us with] would not be accomplished except by force and lordship, be it Jihad [holy war], justice, pilgrimage, assembly, holidays, support of the oppressed, or the establishment of boundaries.

That is why it has been said, “the sultan is Allah’s shadow on earth.’”

6 posted on 11/22/2003 4:36:42 PM PST by Rome2000 (McCarthy was right!)
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To: dennisw
Excellent post.
7 posted on 11/22/2003 4:44:25 PM PST by Land_of_Lincoln_John
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To: dennisw
Very interesting. Good Post!

I do remember that we were never taught in schools about the defensive nature of the crusades, not at all. I certainly hope the cirriculum is being revised (yeah, right, sure)
9 posted on 11/22/2003 4:47:29 PM PST by jocon307 (Ack! and Double Ack!!)
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To: dennisw
Bump.
10 posted on 11/22/2003 4:48:22 PM PST by Argh
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To: dennisw
Brilliant post. Probably one of the most important ever on the history of this forum.

Good work!
11 posted on 11/22/2003 4:55:04 PM PST by lavrenti ("Tell your momma and your poppa, sometimes good guys don't wear white." The Standells)
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To: dennisw
Brilliant post. Probably one of the most important ever on the history of this forum.

Good work!
12 posted on 11/22/2003 4:55:05 PM PST by lavrenti ("Tell your momma and your poppa, sometimes good guys don't wear white." The Standells)
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To: dennisw
About time somebody mentioned this.

I majored in history, with a specialty in military history, and it was apparent to me that (1) the news media had the Crusades dead wrong; and (2) nobody cared that they had the whole thing dead wrong. So other than murmuring more or less to myself, I haven't said much.

Like Prof. Madden says, gotta strike while the iron is hot.

13 posted on 11/22/2003 4:58:15 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (. . . sed, ut scis, quis homines huiusmodi intellegere potest?. . .)
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To: dennisw
My only question is, when does the next one start?
14 posted on 11/22/2003 5:06:46 PM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: dennisw
Ex-president Bill Clinton has also fingered the Crusades

That's Bubba: always fingering something.

16 posted on 11/22/2003 5:12:53 PM PST by Paul Atreides (Is it really so difficult to post the entire article?)
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To: dennisw
Excellent article. It's a keeper. A good book to read about the history of Islam is called "Jihad" by Paul Fregosi. The book begins with Mohammed and follows Islam's bloody history to the present day. It's a serious history book but is written with enough humor to make it a painless history lesson. It follows the same line of thinking as the author in this article.
17 posted on 11/22/2003 5:14:51 PM PST by janeliberty
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To: dennisw
bump II
19 posted on 11/22/2003 5:21:47 PM PST by altura
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To: dennisw
I wish the author had gone into the some of the reasons that the Muslim world failed to progress beyond the days of the Crusades. It is no wonder that Osama and his buddies can't forget the Crusades, they are still stuck in them, like a time warp.
20 posted on 11/22/2003 5:25:27 PM PST by Eva
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To: dennisw
bump
21 posted on 11/22/2003 5:25:48 PM PST by LanaTurnerOverdrive
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To: dennisw
While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam
was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed,
the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword.
32 posted on 11/22/2003 6:31:25 PM PST by RLK
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To: dennisw
With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed.

------------------------

We are succumbing once again under the declarations of Islam being the religion of peace and acting as if the problem were Saddam Hussein.

33 posted on 11/22/2003 6:42:46 PM PST by RLK
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To: dennisw
"It was led by two kings, Louis VII of France and Conrad III of Germany, and preached by St. Bernard himself."

He doesn't mention this but Eleanor d'Aquitaine was his queen then and she also went. She was later the wife of Henry II and ended up being my 23rd great grandmother. Her courage shows up but pretty watered down in me as a trial lawyer.. haha... her 15th great granddaughter was a Revolutionary War Patriot and my sixth great grandmother.
34 posted on 11/22/2003 6:57:39 PM PST by Mercat
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